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UK ambassador to EU resigns in row over Brexit


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Old Yesterday, 05:13
scowie
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I suspect this was just another piece of racketeering by the unholy trinity of bankers, politicians and media moguls. Politicians conspire with bankers to take some action that will cause a movement in the markets when the story is released to the press, like a drop in sterling (as occured on Tuesday), and they all make a killing from insider trading. It's a game that never ends, at least as long as we have the tories (or a blairite labour) in power, and the media will make sure of that too.
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Old Yesterday, 07:07
Dotheboyshall
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"Good to see that the government have replaced a knighted career diplomat with... a knighted career diplomat."
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Old Yesterday, 07:27
Andrew1954
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Congratulations on your excellent summary of the common-sense way of approaching a sensible and planned withdrawal from the EU. If only the slippery crew of right-wing spivs and carpet-baggers who have seized power in the UK would take note. Your wise words should be blazoned across the media.
Too good a phrase not to use in more than one thread, eh?
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Old Yesterday, 07:42
Andrew1954
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It is certainly possible for a country to leave but it's something that would two or three years planning. The way I could see it work is a Eurosceptic party campaigning in a general election on a 'leave the EU' ticket, getting elected and then spending a couple of years in government putting preparations in place before finally triggering Article 50.

Holding a popular referendum on the subject, having no plans in place and you as the Government that are holding the referendum being completely opposed to the idea of leaving the EU, is the most chaotic and shambolic way of going about things and can only end badly.
At least we agree on this. It would have been much better had a Brexit party with a plan and capable of running the country been elected. What's that old joke about asking an Irishman how to get somewhere? "If I were you I wouldn't start from here". But we are here and must make the best of it.
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Old Yesterday, 08:49
Aurora13
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At least we agree on this. It would have been much better had a Brexit party with a plan and capable of running the country been elected. What's that old joke about asking an Irishman how to get somewhere? "If I were you I wouldn't start from here". But we are here and must make the best of it.
The problem is that Leave team were a motley bunch with conflicting ideas and aspirations. Something that many folk not particularly enamoured with EU could see. Trusting our future to said motley bunch was a step too far. A serious economically costed / honest proposal for Leave likely would have got a higher %. Having said that if the political establishment had said Leave there is a segment who would have voted remain just to be contrary.
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Old Yesterday, 08:55
Dotheboyshall
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Too good a phrase not to use in more than one thread, eh?
But not inaccurate.
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Old Yesterday, 09:11
Andrew1954
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Isnt it? Many leading figures supporting Brexit are not those things.
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Old Yesterday, 10:28
LostFool
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Isnt it? Many leading figures supporting Brexit are not those things.
That may well be true but unfortunately it is the "right-wing spivs and carpet-baggers" who are in charge of the process so it's their flavour of exit that we are going to get. Anyone expecting a left wing socialist exit are going to be very disappointed.
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Old Yesterday, 10:33
apaul
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Really unfair for the departing diplomat to accuse the government of muddled thinking. There's no thinking at all, just muddle.
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Old Yesterday, 12:17
Mr Oleo Strut
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Too good a phrase not to use in more than one thread, eh?
Yes, indeed, and I have many more in my quiver! I remember from my youth velvet-collared slippery sharp-suited spivs peddling snake-oil, but I never knew what carpet-baggers were until I read up that they were also smooth-talking con-men (and possibly women?). As far as I am concerned that description amply fits many of the right-wing xenophobic types leading the Brexit dance towards disaster, hence I have no hesitation in describing them as such. You cannot have too much of a good thing!
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Old Yesterday, 12:23
VicnBob
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That may well be true but unfortunately it is the "right-wing spivs and carpet-baggers" who are in charge of the process so it's their flavour of exit that we are going to get. Anyone expecting a left wing socialist exit are going to be very disappointed.
What would a left wing socialist exit look like?
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Old Yesterday, 13:13
Andrew1954
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Yes, indeed, and I have many more in my quiver! I remember from my youth velvet-collared slippery sharp-suited spivs peddling snake-oil, but I never knew what carpet-baggers were until I read up that they were also smooth-talking con-men (and possibly women?). As far as I am concerned that description amply fits many of the right-wing xenophobic types leading the Brexit dance towards disaster, hence I have no hesitation in describing them as such. You cannot have too much of a good thing!
I would have once agreed with you until maybe 18 months from the referendum when I started informing myself about the history of the EU, and how it works. I then realised that we've been lied to since we first joined the common market over 40 years ago. Lied to in a way that makes the 350 million quid poster on a Brexit bus look like a minuscule fib. But then we all perceive things differently.
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Old Yesterday, 13:24
Rooks
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Wasn't this the guy that advised David Cameron during the renegotiation? That wildly successful renegotiation that resulted in a defeat for the Remain side? I'm not why either Remainers or Leavers would be too upset at his departure.
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Old Yesterday, 16:42
Nick1966
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Sir Ivan Rogers headed up the UKRep. This is the UK government body which explains UK policies to other EU member states and represents the UK in negotiations.

The UK government haven't updated their website yet.
https://www.gov.uk/government/world/...tion-to-the-eu

"Ivan Rogers, the UK’s Permanent Representative to the EU, has overall responsibility for the work of the mission and represents the UK at weekly Committee of Permanent Representatives (Coreper II) meetings in the Council of the European Union. Coreper II deals largely with political, financial, justice, policing and foreign policy issues."

Another tiny careless Brexit mistake.
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Old Yesterday, 17:30
LostFool
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What would a left wing socialist exit look like?
Personally, I dread to think but maybe you should ask the regular self-proclaimed socialists on here about what kind of exit they would like to see if Corbyn,McDonnell and Thornberry were in charge rather than the one they'll get from Fox, Davis and Johsnon.
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Old Yesterday, 17:42
Doctor_Wibble
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Sir Ivan Rogers headed up the UKRep. This is the UK government body which explains UK policies to other EU member states and represents the UK in negotiations.
That might go some way to explaining why most of the rest of the EU seem to have taken the vote for Brexit as being a declaration of war.
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Old Yesterday, 17:58
Annsyre
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That might go some way to explaining why most of the rest of the EU seem to have taken the vote for Brexit as being a declaration of war.
The rest of the EU is pre-occupied with who will win the French and German Presidential elections. Those reults could have a far greater impact than Brexit. imo
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Old Yesterday, 18:03
Doctor_Wibble
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The rest of the EU is pre-occupied with who will win the French and German Presidential elections. Those reults could have a far greater impact than Brexit. imo
Not surprising, given we're just that wacky little island off the coast with all those weird traditions
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Old Yesterday, 18:32
Andrew1954
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I think it didn't go down well when he reported back to May that the other EU governments thought negotiations would take 10 years. A case of shooting the messenger.
It's wasn't the message that didn't go down well. It was the way of its leaking.
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Old Yesterday, 18:41
thenetworkbabe
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He knows brexit is utterly impossible and has resigned with his dignity in tact.

We can only hope and pray MP's block brexit to prevent the utter destruction of our economy and way of life.
Can't be done . the result would be a Parliament dominated by the SNP and UKIP wanting opposite things from a minority government. . Complete political meltdown would follow,

Democracy has spoken - even if its said something profoundly dumb and suicidal.
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Old Yesterday, 18:50
Andrew1954
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He knows brexit is utterly impossible and has resigned with his dignity in tact.

We can only hope and pray MP's block brexit to prevent the utter destruction of our economy and way of life.
You do understand what the two words "utter destruction" means don't you? You are aware aren't you that many developed countries - Australia, USA, Canada, Japan, New Zealand ..... - are not members of the EU yet have functioning economies? You are aware arn't you that EU/UK trade is only some 12% of our economy and that most of that trade will continue after Brexit? Utter destruction .... utter bollox!
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Old Yesterday, 19:06
thenetworkbabe
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It is certainly possible for a country to leave but it's something that would two or three years planning. The way I could see it work is a Eurosceptic party campaigning in a general election on a 'leave the EU' ticket, getting elected and then spending a couple of years in government putting preparations in place before finally triggering Article 50.

Holding a popular referendum on the subject, having no plans in place and you as the Government that are holding the referendum being completely opposed to the idea of leaving the EU, is the most chaotic and shambolic way of going about things and can only end badly.
Pointless to wait .

We can't do trade deals before we leave ,and they may take a decade.

There's no point planning what we want in any detail - because what we get is in the hands of the 27 European governments . plus bits of Belgium, and all the MEP's Farage has insulted.

We know what we need - from passporting to potato pickers, waitresses to street cleaners, to NHS staff, now.

May already has got the only starting position she can have politically. The one clear promise from Leave was control, nationally, of immigration. Thats supported by most leavers and over half Remainers. Thats her redline. its open to wide interpretation, as Boris didn't promise any reduction, just control.

The economic issues are confused by Boris claiming we could have free market access and immigration control . that has to be fought for, even if its a hopeless fight. Boris has to admit, to leavers, he was wrong , and blame the Europeans.

Our policy is, thereafter, to get the best deal we can - no more , no less. And then sell it as the least damaging on offer, that, notionally, meets the public demand for immigration control .

May's right on all of the above.

The Civil Service faces obvious problems planning for the unknowable, with the inadequate. Its not helped by having the 3 amigos - who are here to sell the final deal to leave voters. . But it also has to remember, that she cant say the voters were dumb to choose this path, or that it will end in failure. Her job is to maintain some optimism , and get the least damaging deal she can. She can't ignore, or blame, the the public, she just has to get on with the problem they have set her, and which wiser men ran away from, in despair.

What I might do, and Cameron might have done, is to let Parliament agree the immigration redline . Labour would be terribly split , the Conservatives fairly united , and the Liberals Greens , and Corbyn would be horribly exposed - championing unlimited immigration. That would at least establish her setting out point, and leave Boris and Davis to explain how little else they could get after.
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Old Yesterday, 20:46
Mr Oleo Strut
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I would have once agreed with you until maybe 18 months from the referendum when I started informing myself about the history of the EU, and how it works. I then realised that we've been lied to since we first joined the common market over 40 years ago. Lied to in a way that makes the 350 million quid poster on a Brexit bus look like a minuscule fib. But then we all perceive things differently.
Don't you think that all the dead, injured and displaced of two world wars would have happily changed places with us and our European world if they could? Surely, we have a duty to respect their sacrifice and cooperate closely with our European neighbours so as to continue to avoid future problems. The EU is evolving and the UK needs to be right in the centre of it, not skulking in the long grass, cold and isolated,
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Old Yesterday, 20:53
Penny Crayon
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Don't you think that all the dead, injured and displaced of two world wars would have happily changed places with us and our European world if they could? Surely, we have a duty to respect their sacrifice and cooperate closely with our European neighbours so as to continue to avoid future problems. The EU is evolving and the UK needs to be right in the centre of it, not skulking in the long grass, cold and isolated,
Hear, hear.
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Old Yesterday, 20:54
John146
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Don't you think that all the dead, injured and displaced of two world wars would have happily changed places with us and our European world if they could? Surely, we have a duty to respect their sacrifice and cooperate closely with our European neighbours so as to continue to avoid future problems. The EU is evolving and the UK needs to be right in the centre of it, not skulking in the long grass, cold and isolated,
'We' didn't fight two world wars to become part of Europe, we fought the 2nd world war to stop Gt Britain becoming part of Europe, how do you think our dead, injured and displaced would have thought of us joining the EU?
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