DS Forums

 
 

UK ambassador to EU resigns in row over Brexit


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Yesterday, 20:57
andykn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London SW6
Posts: 37,469
'We' didn't fight two world wars to become part of Europe, we fought the 2nd world war to stop Gt Britain becoming part of Europe, how do you think our dead, injured and displaced would have thought of us joining the EU?
Why are the thoughts of the dead, injured and displaced worth more mention that the survivors?

Edward Heath was in the army in WWII.
andykn is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old Yesterday, 20:59
John146
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 8,253
Why are the thoughts of the dead, injured and displaced worth more mention that the survivors?

Edward Heath was in the army in WWII.
Ask Mr Oleo Strut, he brought up the dead and injured and displaced,most of my family were in the forces in WW2, some of my family fought and died in WW1...
John146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:07
Penny Crayon
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,483
Ask Mr Oleo Strut, he brought up the dead and injured and displaced,most of my family were in the forces in WW2, some of my family fought and died in WW1...
My family too fought in WW2 - my family lived through the Blitz and were bombed out more than once.

i can't speak for all of them but those I can speak for were happy that there was peace and co-operation throughout Europe. There was always a certaind amount of mistrust with regard to Germany but I think the consensus was that it was better working with them than against them.

That' certainly how I see it.
Penny Crayon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:13
John146
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 8,253
My family too fought in WW2 - my family lived through the Blitz and were bombed out more than once.

i can't speak for all of them but those I can speak for were happy that there was peace and co-operation throughout Europe. There was always a certaind amount of mistrust with regard to Germany but I think the consensus was that it was better working with them than against them.

That' certainly how I see it.
My grandfather fought in WW1 wounded at Gallipoli, Great Uncle killed at Gallipoli, Grandfather when recovered sent on the Somme for 2/3 years, Uncle fought in Burma WW2 lost an arm there, my other uncle was in the RAF, I lived through most of the blitz, after both these wars it seemed the only way to keep Germany 'under control' was to occupy German territory, I agree with you that we are better working together, but I am not sure that Germany could/would become antagonistic again even if we hadn't joined the EU
John146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:16
Eurostar
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 51,589
'We' didn't fight two world wars to become part of Europe, we fought the 2nd world war to stop Gt Britain becoming part of Europe, how do you think our dead, injured and displaced would have thought of us joining the EU?
The Nazi regime was expansionist (though had no particular desire to invade Britain or subsume it into the Reich).

WW1 was an entirely different kettle of fish and was caused by nationalism in Britain, France and Germany plus other factors such as the situation in the Balkans. It's certainly not the case that the British and French were the good guys in WW1 and everyone else the bad guys : all sides were equally to blame for starting that war, in effect everyone was the bad guy, including the Brits.
Eurostar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:17
John146
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 8,253
The Nazi regime was expansionist (though had no particular desire to invade Britain or subsume it into the Reich).

WW1 was an entirely different kettle of fish and was caused by nationalism in Britain, France and Germany plus other factors such as the situation in the Balkans. It's certainly not the case that the British and French were the good guys in WW1 and everyone else the bad guys : all sides were equally to blame for starting that war, in effect everyone was the bad guy, including the Brits.
So, are you saying the RAF didn't fight the Battle of Britain to stop a German invasion?
John146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:19
Cheetah666
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,550
So, are you saying the RAF didn't fight the Battle of Britain to stop a German invasion?
Yes they did, but only after Britain had declared war on Germany. That's the only reason they wanted to invade either you or France, previous to that their expansionist ambitions had all been in the East.
Cheetah666 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:21
John146
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 8,253
Yes they did, but only after Britain had declared war on Germany. That's the only reason they wanted to invade either you or France, previous to that their expansionist ambitions had all been in the East.
History seems to say that Hitler (although he had plans anyway) turned East after the Luftwaffe lost the Battle of Britain, the RAF expended many lives and bombs bombing landing craft moored in harbours in France
John146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:23
Eurostar
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 51,589
So, are you saying the RAF didn't fight the Battle of Britain to stop a German invasion?
Correct. What the Nazis were trying to do was bomb the British into submission and come up with a 'peace settlement' where Churchill would call off the war and give Hitler a free hand to do whatever he liked on the continent.

The Germans would have been in no position to mount an invasion of Britain though. The British had a huge number of soldiers available to defend the country and a strong Royal Navy.
Eurostar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:24
Cheetah666
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,550
History seems to say that Hitler (although he had plans anyway) turned East after the Luftwaffe lost the Battle of Britain, the RAF expended many lives and bombs bombing landing craft moored in harbours in France
Er..no. Hitler turned east before the war, that was kind of the whole cause of it. Remember Poland? He turned on France and Britain when they declared war on Germany because Stalin had been temporarily bribed with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. His ambitions were always east of Germany, not west or north.
Cheetah666 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:26
John146
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 8,253
Correct. What the Nazis were trying to do was bomb the British into submission and come up with a 'peace settlement' where Churchill would call off the war and give Hitler a free hand to do whatever he liked on the continent.

The Germans would have been in no position to mount an invasion of Britain though. The British had a huge number of soldiers available to defend the country and a strong Royal Navy.
Are you actually saying that after Dunkirk England was in a position to defend itself?, the 'little boats' brought back 36,000 troops, not all of which were English, 'we' only came into a position to defend ourselves, and invade Europe was when Hitler declared war on the USA
John146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:27
Eurostar
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 51,589
Er..no. Hitler turned east before the war, that was kind of the whole cause of it. Remember Poland? He turned on France and Britain when they declared war on Germany because Stalin had been temporarily bribed with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. His ambitions were always east of Germany, not west or north.
He never had any plans to invade Britain (partly because he knew that such an undertaking would be a logistical nightmare and perhaps doomed to failure).
Eurostar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:30
MuTron1
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 260
You do understand what the two words "utter destruction" means don't you? You are aware aren't you that many developed countries - Australia, USA, Canada, Japan, New Zealand ..... - are not members of the EU yet have functioning economies? You are aware arn't you that EU/UK trade is only some 12% of our economy and that most of that trade will continue after Brexit? Utter destruction .... utter bollox!
Yeah, but Australia, USA, Canada, Japan and New Zealand haven't had their economies develop over the past 40 years within the context of being in the EU

A more equivalent situation would be for Canada to pull out of NAFTA or for new Zealand to pull out of their FTA with Australia
MuTron1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:31
Eurostar
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 51,589
Are you actually saying that after Dunkirk England was in a position to defend itself?, the 'little boats' brought back 36,000 troops, not all of which were English, 'we' only came into a position to defend ourselves, and invade Europe was when Hitler declared war on the USA
The British were not in any great shape at all in 1940 but the major problem for the Germans is that they had no tradition whatsoever of naval invasions. All of their great successes came on land and supported by the Luftwaffe. Trying to invade an island nation of 50m+ people and a big miltary power to boot would have been potentially catastrophic for Hitler.
Eurostar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:31
Resonance
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,204
He never had any plans to invade Britain (partly because he knew that such an undertaking would be a logistical nightmare and perhaps doomed to failure).
He certainly did have plans. He was hoping to win the Battle of Britain and for us to seek a peace agreement. If we didn't then an invasion was on the cards (Operation Sea Lion).
Resonance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:32
John146
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 8,253
Er..no. Hitler turned east before the war, that was kind of the whole cause of it. Remember Poland? He turned on France and Britain when they declared war on Germany because Stalin had been temporarily bribed with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. His ambitions were always east of Germany, not west or north.
So, why did the Germans send fighter squadron over, they were there to take the RAF out of the equation, and, why did the Germans go to all the trouble and expense of building landing craft and sending them to France, Hitler actually invaded Russia in June 1941??
John146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:35
Cheetah666
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,550
So, why did the Germans send fighter squadron over, they were there to take the RAF out of the equation, and, why did the Germans go to all the trouble and expense of building landing craft and sending them to France, Hitler actually invaded Russia in June 1941??
Hitler did those things because Britain and France declared war on Germany. And they declared war on Germany because Hitler had invaded Poland, not because they were under any threat of invasion themselves.
Cheetah666 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:39
John146
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 8,253
Hitler did those things because Britain and France declared war on Germany. And they declared war on Germany because Hitler had invaded Poland, not because they were under any threat of invasion themselves.
We were not under any threat of invasion until Hitler took France, he then had plans (Operation Sea Lion) to invade Britain, it was only when Goering failed to beat the RAF did he change his plans.
John146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:42
Cheetah666
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,550
We were not under any threat of invasion until Hitler took France, he then had plans (Operation Sea Lion) to invade Britain, it was only when Goering failed to beat the RAF did he change his plans.
Operation Sea Lion was a product of the war, not a product of any German ambitions to colonise Britain. The only reason for any of those things is that Britain stood in the way of Hitler's ambitions to expand the Third Reich eastwards.
Cheetah666 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:44
John146
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 8,253
Operation Sea Lion was a product of the war, not a product of any German ambitions to colonise Britain. The only reason for any of those things is that Britain stood in the way of Hitler's ambitions to expand the Third Reich eastwards.
Hitler most certainly had plans to 'colonise' Britain, but only when we said we would not sue for peace

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/...n-Sea-Lion.htm
John146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:47
Cheetah666
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,550
Hitler most certainly had plans to 'colonise' Britain, but only when we said we would not sue for peace

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/...n-Sea-Lion.htm
Yeah, you're getting way off the point. Britain did not fight WW2 to avoid being invaded by Germany, if that was all your ancestors had been worried about they could have just kept out of it and Germany wouldn't have bothered coming near you. His ambitions all lay in the east of Europe and it was to stop German expansionism to the east that Britain and France declared war.
Cheetah666 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 21:57
John146
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 8,253
[quote=Cheetah666;85065992]Yeah, you're getting way off the point. Britain did not fight WW2 to avoid being invaded by Germany, if that was all your ancestors had been worried about they could have just kept out of it and Germany wouldn't have bothered coming near you. His ambitions all lay in the east of Europe and it was to stop German expansionism to the east that Britain and France declared war.[/QUOTE]

We were under an obligation to assist Poland when Hitler invaded it in 1939, France being an ally of Britain declared war on Germany both because Hitler invaded Poland. we couldn't keep out of it really.
John146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 22:00
Cheetah666
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,550
We were under an obligation to assist Poland when Hitler invaded it in 1939, France being an ally of Britain declared war on Germany. we couldn't keep out of it really/
Nobody's disputing that. But your contention that that generation of Brits went to war to keep Britain out of Europe is completely inaccurate. If they'd wanted to keep Britain out of Europe they would have not declared war and let Hitler get on with invading eastern European countries. They went to war to keep countries like Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia out of Hitler's clutches.
Cheetah666 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 22:00
mRebel
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19,171
Most Irish people take a very keen interest in Brexit (and in many other British news stories), it's not much different to the British posters here commenting on Donald Trump's election.

I have a lot of relatives too in the UK who will be directly affected of course.
I didn't know you're Irish till now, but it explains your enthusiasm for the EU. After all, when your banks went bust the kind chaps at the EU only made you pay 70 billion euros to the banks investors, who include Barclays Bank and the Rothschild's. I bet you're delighted to be paying higher taxes for their benefit!

Ireland fought a war to gain independence from Britain, but you accept the tyranny of Draghi and co with barely a murmur.
mRebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 22:03
John146
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 8,253
Nobody's disputing that. But your contention that that generation of Brits went to war to keep Britain out of Europe is completely inaccurate. If they'd wanted to keep Britain out of Europe they would have not declared war and let Hitler get on with invading eastern European countries. They went to war to keep countries like Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia out of Hitler's clutches.
Where did that come from? I cannot remember saying that we fought WW1 or WW2 to keep Britain out of Europe, the one and only reason we fought WW2 was because of Germany's invasion of Poland
John146 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply




 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:32.