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UK ambassador to EU resigns in row over Brexit


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Old Yesterday, 22:03
mRebel
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That's a very interesting interpretation of the situation. Firstly, no country has even talking about leaving the EU other than the UK. Some countries are pushing for more integration, others want less. But a consensus will be reached.

Unlike here, where deviation from the new norm results in having to resign, or suffer death threats and abuse.

Once the UK has left the EU, I suspect it will develop a core of closely knit, protectionist economies

BIB - can you not bring yourself to say his name - are you afraid he will appear in you office, like Candyman?
Euro scepticism has been slowly increasing in a number of countries for some years.
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Old Yesterday, 22:06
Cheetah666
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Where did that come from? I cannot remember saying that we fought WW1 or WW2 to keep Britain out of Europe, the one and only reason we fought WW2 was because of Germany's invasion of Poland
In post #375 you said...

We' didn't fight two world wars to become part of Europe,we fought the 2nd world war to stop Gt Britain becoming part of Europe, how do you think our dead, injured and displaced would have thought of us joining the EU?
That's what I was responding to.
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Old Yesterday, 22:09
John146
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In post #375 you said...



That's what I was responding to.
The bit about us fighting to stop Britain becoming part of Europe was with respect that we fought in the 1940's to stop Germany invading Gt Britain and making it part of Europe, should have explained myself better.
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Old Yesterday, 22:11
Cheetah666
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The bit about us fighting to stop Britain becoming part of Europe was with respect that we fought in the 1940's to stop Germany invading Gt Britain and making it part of Europe, should have explained myself better.
OK. I think its best if the war rhetoric is kept out of the Brexit debate altogether, the two situations are very different, and the EU is not Nazi Germany.
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Old Yesterday, 22:13
John146
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OK. I think its best if the war rhetoric is kept out of the Brexit debate altogether, the two situations are very different, and the EU is not Nazi Germany.
The mods will delete this thread if 'we' do not keep on topic, but thanks for the discussion
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Old Yesterday, 22:15
Cheetah666
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The mods will delete this thread if 'we' do not keep on topic, but thanks for the discussion
You're welcome.
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Old Yesterday, 22:16
mRebel
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Don't you think that all the dead, injured and displaced of two world wars would have happily changed places with us and our European world if they could? Surely, we have a duty to respect their sacrifice and cooperate closely with our European neighbours so as to continue to avoid future problems. The EU is evolving and the UK needs to be right in the centre of it, not skulking in the long grass, cold and isolated,
Pity I wasn't a member of DS in the late nineties, if DS existed then. Had I been I'd have voiced the fear I then felt, that the euro would mean that there'd come a point when the divergent economic interests of its members would it under pressure, with much bad feeling between states. And that as Europe is possibly the most warlike continent on earth, this was scary. Now we see what I feared coming to be, with the animosity between Greece and Germany being only the most extreme example of mutual animosity.

Euro scepticism is growing, not because of the efforts of dedicated euro sceptics, but the EU elite, who are ignoring the interests of the people.
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Old Yesterday, 22:40
outof thepark
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Pity I wasn't a member of DS in the late nineties, if DS existed then. Had I been I'd have voiced the fear I then felt, that the euro would mean that there'd come a point when the divergent economic interests of its members would it under pressure, with much bad feeling between states. And that as Europe is possibly the most warlike continent on earth, this was scary. Now we see what I feared coming to be, with the animosity between Greece and Germany being only the most extreme example of mutual animosity.

Euro scepticism is growing, not because of the efforts of dedicated euro sceptics, but the EU elite, who are ignoring the interests of the people.
The extreme animosity between Greece and Gremany, Europe the most warlike continent on Earth?
These are very strong statement which lead me to believe you are living in some sort of past life,
You don't see Greeks shooting Germans in nightclubs or killing Germans at Christmas markets? the issues we face today are well beyound the issues that were faced by Europe in the world wars, the European nations have grown and are beyound that one would hope, there are other global issues out there, but let's not let that get in the way of a good all Europe bashing or Euro Bashing whatever it is.
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Old Yesterday, 22:42
Eurostar
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I didn't know you're Irish till now, but it explains your enthusiasm for the EU. After all, when your banks went bust the kind chaps at the EU only made you pay 70 billion euros to the banks investors, who include Barclays Bank and the Rothschild's. I bet you're delighted to be paying higher taxes for their benefit!

Ireland fought a war to gain independence from Britain, but you accept the tyranny of Draghi and co with barely a murmur.
It it's no great secret that most Irish people would be pro-EU. Part of the way the country established its independence from 1922 onwards was in establishing links with Europe, they were natural bedfellows as they were 'not British'.

The ECB took a hammering in Ireland over its insistence that the country not burn the bondholders in 2010, there was a lot of anger over it but people also realised Ireland itself had contributed greatly to the crisis, it would be no use looking for an outside scapegoat to blame everthing on (which would be the usual Daily Express tactic).
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Old Yesterday, 23:40
Penny Crayon
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I found this a really interesting read.


https://www.ft.com/content/4434bb14-...b-680c49b4b4c0


At this point Mr Johnson is inclined to stand up and proclaim that all will be fine. The 27 will give Britain what it wants in their own self-interest. They will have in mind safeguarding Britain’s substantial imports of Italian prosecco, luxury German cars and French wine.

There are two manifest flaws here: the first that Britain is a much smaller market for its partners than is the union for Britain; the second is the unlearnt lesson that most other Europeans do not look through the same narrow, transactional lens. The EU has a meaning and purpose beyond the export of bottles of fizz and expensive cars
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Old Yesterday, 23:54
Mr Oleo Strut
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The extreme animosity between Greece and Gremany, Europe the most warlike continent on Earth?
These are very strong statement which lead me to believe you are living in some sort of past life,
You don't see Greeks shooting Germans in nightclubs or killing Germans at Christmas markets? the issues we face today are well beyound the issues that were faced by Europe in the world wars, the European nations have grown and are beyound that one would hope, there are other global issues out there, but let's not let that get in the way of a good all Europe bashing or Euro Bashing whatever it is.
Very true. Greece's problems were, sadly for ordinary Greeks, their own fault and not that of anybody else. The EU bailed them out at a price. Will the EU similarly help the UK when Brexit goes belly-up?
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Old Today, 00:16
burneside
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Don't you think that all the dead, injured and displaced of two world wars would have happily changed places with us and our European world if they could? Surely, we have a duty to respect their sacrifice and cooperate closely with our European neighbours so as to continue to avoid future problems. The EU is evolving and the UK needs to be right in the centre of it, not skulking in the long grass, cold and isolated,
My late father who served in the Second World War would most certainly have voted for Brexit, so don't try to use their memory to fight your cause.
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Unread Today, 08:12
dosanjh1
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My late father who served in the Second World War would most certainly have voted for Brexit, so don't try to use their memory to fight your cause.
It is very relevant. The reason we are where we are today is a consequence of the outcome of WW2.

Your father might have voted Brexit - although I'm not sure how you can speak for him, what would Churchill have done? Many considered him to be hugely in favour of closer European integration and he is considered by many to be one of the founding fathers of the EU.
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Unread Today, 08:29
Andrew1954
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It is very relevant. The reason we are where we are today is a consequence of the outcome of WW2.

Your father might have voted Brexit - although I'm not sure how you can speak for him, what would Churchill have done? Many considered him to be hugely in favour of closer European integration and he is considered by many to be one of the founding fathers of the EU.
He also said we wouldn't be part of it.
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Unread Today, 08:40
Aurora13
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It is very relevant. The reason we are where we are today is a consequence of the outcome of WW2.

Your father might have voted Brexit - although I'm not sure how you can speak for him, what would Churchill have done? Many considered him to be hugely in favour of closer European integration and he is considered by many to be one of the founding fathers of the EU.
As Churchill said in 1946

Is the only lesson of history to be that mankind is unteachable? Let there be justice, mercy and freedom. The peoples have only to will it and all will achieve their heart's desire.
The structure of the United States of Europe will be such as to make the material strength of a single State less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by a contribution to the common cause.
I now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant aim must be to build and fortify the United Nations Organisation. Under and within that world concept we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe.
A xenophobic little Englander he was not. As we can see he would have challenged much of the thinking that is today attached to patriotism and WW2.
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Unread Today, 08:46
Aurora13
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He also said we wouldn't be part of it.
No he did not. He said that it had to be built by continental Europe themselves rather than those who won the war.

In this urgent work France and Germany must take the lead together. Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America - and, I trust, Soviet Russia, for then indeed all would be well - must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live. Therefore I say to you "Let Europe arise!"
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Unread Today, 09:00
Andrew1954
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As Churchill said in 1946. A xenophobic little Englander he was not. As we can see he would have challenged much of the thinking that is today attached to patriotism and WW2.
Churchill also said that Great Britain could never be part of such a union because: “[…] we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.”
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Unread Today, 09:22
Penny Crayon
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After two world wars and the devastation, loss and destruction I think any sane thinking person would have seen the way forward as co=operation and consensus.

I know lots of citizens and ex servicemen were bitter and vengeful for many years - understandably so but - we are in the 21st century now. We really should have taken the lessons of history on board. All this rabid nationalism/jingoism never ends well.

Churchill is often mis quoted and misrepresented on his views on Europe. I think this article is pretty clear though.

http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013...uropean-union/



One year on, in August 1949, at the first meeting of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg, Churchill delivered his speech in French, and said:

‘We are reunited here, in this new Assembly, not as representatives of our several countries or various political parties, but as Europeans forging ahead, hand in hand, and if necessary elbow to elbow, to restore the former glories of Europe..

‘There is no reason for us not to succeed in achieving our goal and laying the foundation of a United Europe. A Europe whose moral design will win the respect and acknowledgement of all humanity, and whose physical strength will be such that no person will dare to disturb it as it marches peacefully towards the future.’

The following year, in 1950, Churchill called for the creation of a European Army ’..under a unified command, and in which we should all bear a worthy and honourable part.’ (France objected to this plan).

Notice how in his speeches, Churchill said ‘we’ must build a United States of Europe; not ‘they’. He said ‘we’ aim at the eventual participation of the peoples of Europe; not ‘they’. He said ‘we’ must assemble and combine countries to join the Union of Europe; not ‘they’. He said ‘we’ should create a European army; not ‘they’ It’s surely beyond doubt that Churchill wanted the UK to take part in the unification of Europe.
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