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Old 03-01-2017, 17:41
Jane Doh!
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I don't see what this has to do with movies
These are supposedly highly trained marksmen and I would have thought it possible for them to shoot accurately to disarm and disable
I'm assuming you have no experience of confronting an armed man. If you had, you would know it isn't always as simple as that.
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:43
GusGus
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Just to add some numbers to that:

In 2014/15, England and Wales armed police dealt with 14,666 incidents.

Six bullets were fired.

(Source: http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/armed...ail/story.html - see towards bottom for the national stats)

In those 14,666 incidents how many of those other than the police were armed?

Since 1990, 63 have been shot and killed by police forces in England and Wales
http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics...lice-shootings
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:45
EvieJ
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Just to add some numbers to that:

In 2014/15, England and Wales armed police dealt with 14,666 incidents.

Six bullets were fired.

(Source: http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/armed...ail/story.html - see towards bottom for the national stats)
Number really shouldn't be the issue IMO. Its the circumstances that are really relevant.
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:46
spkx
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In those 14,666 incidents how many of those other than the police were armed?
Those are incidents where firearms use was authorised, so wouldn't include a firearms unit otherwise attending a non-firearms call.
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:47
EvieJ
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I'm assuming you have no experience of confronting an armed man. If you had, you would know it isn't always as simple as that.
How do you know this man was armed?
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:48
VicnBob
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That's the most bizarre on nonsensical comment I have read today!
I second that emotion
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:49
Jane Doh!
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How do you know this man was armed?
I don't, but in the scenario in the post I was replying to, he was.
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:50
VicnBob
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In those 14,666 incidents how many of those other than the police were armed?
14,666?
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:51
skp20040
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How do you know this man was armed?
At this point we do not know just in the same way you do not know he was unarmed or of no threat.
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:51
GusGus
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I'm assuming you have no experience of confronting an armed man. If you had, you would know it isn't always as simple as that.

But I am not a highly trained police marksman
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:52
GusGus
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How do you know?
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:54
Monkey_Moo
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Really? Which bit are you struggling with?
That real life, where sometimes unarmed people are shot, should be more like Hollywood, where the body count is higher and unarmed people frequently get shot. Even if we could emulate what happens in the movies, which we can't because it's not real, they exaggerate and make things up for dramatic effect, that would actually make things even more dangerous.

Also, just because a person turns out to be unarmed does not automatically make the decision to shoot incorrect at the time. People don't have to wait to be shot at, they just have to have a genuine belief at the time. It's a very tough judgement call to make, that's why we have courts to decide afterwards if it was justified/lawful or not.

We can't say in this case, there will be months, maybe years, of investigations to find out.
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:56
EvieJ
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At this point we do not know just in the same way you do not know he was unarmed or of no threat.
Exactly, we don't know.

I would hope for the sake of the police that he was and they can provide some solid evidence - the whole Duggan farce made them look not only like idiots but lying and deceitful ones at that.
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Old 03-01-2017, 17:58
Happ Hazzard
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Always annoys me when I see family and friends bawling their eyes out of the nasty police shooting someone who then turns out to be a violent gangster. Are we going to see riots over this like we did with Mark Duggan? It's pathetic IMO. Criminals live by the sword, they must accept dying by the sword as well, and so must their families.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:02
EvieJ
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That real life, where sometimes unarmed people are shot, should be more like Hollywood, where the body count is higher and unarmed people frequently get shot. Even if we could emulate what happens in the movies, which we can't because it's not real, they exaggerate and make things up for dramatic effect, that would actually make things even more dangerous.

Also, just because a person turns out to be unarmed does not automatically make the decision to shoot incorrect at the time. People don't have to wait to be shot at, they just have to have a genuine belief at the time. It's a very tough judgement call to make, that's why we have courts to decide afterwards if it was justified/lawful or not.

We can't say in this case, there will be months, maybe years, of investigations to find out.
I'm sorry, I'm going to overlook your rather patronising and long winded attempt to compare dramatic effect with real life deaths.

The fact is, that death should be a last resort for anyone. If at all possible shoot to disable rather than shoot to kill would a preferable option to shooting someone who is no threat to others and should be tried and found guilty of any crimes they have committed.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:09
Monkey_Moo
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I'm sorry, I'm going to overlook your rather patronising and long winded attempt to compare dramatic effect with real life deaths.

The fact is, that death should be a last resort for anyone. If at all possible shoot to disable rather than shoot to kill would a preferable option to shooting someone who is no threat to others and should be tried and found guilty of any crimes they have committed.
It was you that said real life should be like the movies.

And yes, it should always be the last resort to fire a weapon. But shooting to disable is not an option in the real world, for the reasons explained already. They shoot for the body mass (very rarely the head, in extreme counter terrorism situations).

Ask anyone else with military combat experience. People can still discharge a weapon after being shot in a limb. They only have to put the tigger once.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:09
Happ Hazzard
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There is no such thing as "shoot to disable". Trained police shoot at the biggest target, the chest. There is quite a good possibility of death when you shoot someone in the chest. What would you have them do? Shoot a gun out of felons hand? Apart from anything else, shooting and hands or legs gives a good possibility of the bullet missing and going who knows where, possibly hitting innocent civilians.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:10
VicnBob
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How do you know?
Because its how our police work..... pretty pointless apprehending a known suspect that has a history of using fire arms and is very dangerous with a feather duster.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:14
Zeropoint1
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Always annoys me when I see family and friends bawling their eyes out of the nasty police shooting someone who then turns out to be a violent gangster. Are we going to see riots over this like we did with Mark Duggan? It's pathetic IMO. Criminals live by the sword, they must accept dying by the sword as well, and so must their families.
Exactly, while in this case we can't comment as the facts are not yet known to the public and all parties are innocent until proven guilty.

It has to be said there are a lot of very violent people killed in this way or at the hands of fellow criminals who wouldn't think twice about seriously hurting another person.
They are more often than not very dangerous and couldn't care less about anybody else. As you say, you live by the sword you die by the sword.

Though obviously in the case in question it's too early for us to say.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:21
MC_Satan
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When incidents like this happen I always wonder why the police do not shoot to disable rather than kill
In this instance - through a windscreen of an Audi in the dark?
Tough shot.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:22
Zeropoint1
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Because its how our police work..... pretty pointless apprehending a known suspect that has a history of using fire arms and is very dangerous with a feather duster.
I think that's the trouble with a lot of people who blame the police for these types of killings.
They haven't been there under the pressure where decisions can be split second between life or death for you, your team members and the general public. I certainly haven't.

I know several now former police officers who when confronted with violent, drunken or drugged up people have had to take decisions on what to do with either just one other officer or alone. Things become heated very quickly and they know one wrong move can escalate the situation out of control, especially when completely out numbered. Thank they seem to have made the right calls at the right times and escaped relatively unharmed.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:22
EvieJ
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It was you that said real life should be like the movies.

As yes, it should always be the last resort to fire a weapon. But shooting to disable is not an option in the real world, for the reasons explained already.

Ask anyone else with military combat experience. People can still discharge a weapon after being shot in a limb. They only have to put the tigger once.
So the assumption being that everyone must have a weapon?
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:23
skp20040
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It seems family and people who knew him are being slightly more restrained than we have seen in previous cases


http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-...earch-12400509

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-...olice-12396431

Previously cleared of attempted murder involving guns after judge dismissed the case ( no assumptions being made link was on same page as above )

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-...birkby-4998267
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:26
EvieJ
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Exactly, while in this case we can't comment as the facts are not yet known to the public and all parties are innocent until proven guilty.

It has to be said there are a lot of very violent people killed in this way or at the hands of fellow criminals who wouldn't think twice about seriously hurting another person.
They are more often than not very dangerous and couldn't care less about anybody else. As you say, you live by the sword you die by the sword.

Though obviously in the case in question it's too early for us to say.
They are now reporting a weapon was found in the car.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:26
Wee Tinkers
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BBC reporting suspected firearm found. News just in so no more detail than that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38501122

Last edited by Wee Tinkers : 03-01-2017 at 18:28. Reason: Link didn't work
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