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Old 03-01-2017, 18:26
Jane Doh!
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But I am not a highly trained police marksman
That's precisely the point. You have no idea how easy or difficult it is to shoot to disarm.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:29
EvieJ
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BBC reporting suspected firearm found. News just in so no more detail than that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38501122
There was also a incident 4 days earlier where shots were fired in West Yorkshire - perhaps this operation was linked to that.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:29
lybertyne
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Just to add some numbers to that:

In 2014/15, England and Wales armed police dealt with 14,666 incidents.

Six bullets were fired.

(Source: http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/armed...ail/story.html - see towards bottom for the national stats)
Sounds like a dull job. Imagine training to be an expert in something and then never using that skill.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:31
skp20040
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Sounds like a dull job. Imagine training to be an expert in something and then never using that skill.
Part of that skill being able to use a weapon correctly and knowing when you need to use it and hoping that your presence will be enough not to have to
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:35
Grafenwalder
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It seems family and people who knew him are being slightly more restrained than we have seen in previous cases.
I imagine they've been told to as the IPCC investigation is ongoing. Young man driving expensive car = "businessman" (drug dealer).
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:38
EvieJ
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It seems family and people who knew him are being slightly more restrained than we have seen in previous cases


http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-...earch-12400509

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-...olice-12396431

Previously cleared of attempted murder involving guns after judge dismissed the case ( no assumptions being made link was on same page as above )

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-...birkby-4998267
You have to wonder why that earlier case was brought up. It sounds like he got away with attempted murder, and he may have done - who knows. But when you read the article its clear the judge felt he was being completely fitted up.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:42
Monkey_Moo
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Sounds like a dull job. Imagine training to be an expert in something and then never using that skill.
They do lots of other things to, firearms is just one aspect of the job.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:44
skp20040
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You have to wonder why that earlier case was brought up. It sounds like he got away with attempted murder, and he may have done - who knows. But when you read the article its clear the judge felt he was being completely fitted up.
Not sure I would read that as a Judge saying he was being fitted up , I read it as a Judge saying with that witness despite picking him out of an ID parade based on the rest of his testimony he was unreliable and therefore you could not guarantee a safe conviction
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:46
VicnBob
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I think that's the trouble with a lot of people who blame the police for these types of killings.
They haven't been there under the pressure where decisions can be split second between life or death for you, your team members and the general public. I certainly haven't.

I know several now former police officers who when confronted with violent, drunken or drugged up people have had to take decisions on what to do with either just one other officer or alone. Things become heated very quickly and they know one wrong move can escalate the situation out of control, especially when completely out numbered. Thank they seem to have made the right calls at the right times and escaped relatively unharmed.
Totally agree. It is known throughout the world we have the best trained police officers, and also the rest of our other forces.
What seems to come across from some of the posters is there lack of awareness, of the intelligence and planning before these operations takes place.
I cannot imagine for one second that the officer that fired is now having a jolly old time at the pub, or having a pleasant snooze on the sofa.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:47
anne_666
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Sounds like a dull job. Imagine training to be an expert in something and then never using that skill.


They're police officers.
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:51
GusGus
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Totally agree. It is known throughout the world we have the best trained police officers, and also the rest of our other forces.
What seems to come across from some of the posters is there lack of awareness, of the intelligence and planning before these operations takes place.
I cannot imagine for one second that the officer that fired is now having a jolly old time at the pub, or having a pleasant snooze on the sofa.

Are you aware of the attitude and refusal to co-operate of the "highly trained police marksmen following the shooting dead of Mark Duggan who was unarmed (that was the decision of the inquest jury, who also gave the extraordinary verdict of "lawful killing"
An incident which completely changed my attitude to police marksmen
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Old 03-01-2017, 18:57
EvieJ
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Not sure I would read that as a Judge saying he was being fitted up , I read it as a Judge saying with that witness despite picking him out of an ID parade based on the rest of his testimony he was unreliable and therefore you could not guarantee a safe conviction
After hearing arguments from counsel, Judge Marson ruled Mr Hussain was one of the least compelling witnesses that he had seen in 35 years.

The judge stressed that the case was an identification one and there was a need for special caution.

He said: “I regard his evidence as being dangerous and it cannot safely, in my view, be left to the jury even if there is some evidence capable of supporting his identification.”


Before discharging the jury, Judge Marson told them that there would be no case against Yaqub without the evidence of Mr Hussain and courts had to treat such cases with very great care.

The judge told the jury: “Having assessed the evidence I have come to the view that it is so dangerous that no jury properly directed could safely convict this man on these serious charges and I hope you understand why I have come to that view.”


I see his comments as quite damning of the witness. Very little if any of his testimony proved accurate and you have to wonder how it even got to court.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:01
VicnBob
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Are you aware of the attitude and refusal to co-operate of the "highly trained police marksmen following the shooting dead of Mark Duggan who was unarmed (that was the decision of the inquest jury, who also gave the extraordinary verdict of "lawful killing"
An incident which completely changed my attitude to police marksmen
I take little notice of what is written in newspapers, they rarely write or have the full story. Maybe if you knew what our police officers have to deal with on a day to day basis, and had a little more faith your attitude would change.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:02
Wee Tinkers
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Are you aware of the attitude and refusal to co-operate of the "highly trained police marksmen following the shooting dead of Mark Duggan who was unarmed (that was the decision of the inquest jury, who also gave the extraordinary verdict of "lawful killing"
An incident which completely changed my attitude to police marksmen
I could be wrong - apologies if I am; I certainly don't want to start a long running Duggan thread - but I thought they were cleared of wrongdoing because, although a firearm was not found on Duggan, there was a gun found a few metres from him so they believed it plausible that he had discarded it.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:13
EvieJ
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I take little notice of what is written in newspapers, they rarely write or have the full story. Maybe if you knew what our police officers have to deal with on a day to day basis, and had a little more faith your attitude would change.
Unfortunately the enquiry, the inaccuracies that came to light and the IPCC comments did little for their credibility.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:13
Monkey_Moo
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After hearing arguments from counsel, Judge Marson ruled Mr Hussain was one of the least compelling witnesses that he had seen in 35 years.

The judge stressed that the case was an identification one and there was a need for special caution.

He said: “I regard his evidence as being dangerous and it cannot safely, in my view, be left to the jury even if there is some evidence capable of supporting his identification.”


Before discharging the jury, Judge Marson told them that there would be no case against Yaqub without the evidence of Mr Hussain and courts had to treat such cases with very great care.

The judge told the jury: “Having assessed the evidence I have come to the view that it is so dangerous that no jury properly directed could safely convict this man on these serious charges and I hope you understand why I have come to that view.”


I see his comments as quite damning of the witness. Very little if any of his testimony proved accurate and you have to wonder how it even got to court.
Which is exactly what skp20040 was saying. The judge just said that the key witness was highly unreliable. That's a long way off being 'fitted up'.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:14
Jane Doh!
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Are you aware of the attitude and refusal to co-operate of the "highly trained police marksmen following the shooting dead of Mark Duggan who was unarmed (that was the decision of the inquest jury, who also gave the extraordinary verdict of "lawful killing"
An incident which completely changed my attitude to police marksmen
One incident changed your attitude towards ALL police marksmen?
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:17
VicnBob
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Unfortunately the enquiry, the inaccuracies that came to light and the IPCC comments did little for their credibility.
That was written in the newspapers.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:20
EvieJ
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Which is exactly what skp20040 was saying. The judge just said that the key witness was highly unreliable. That's a long way off being 'fitted up'.
What do think he meant by detailing his 'inaccuracies' and using the word dangerous?
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:20
Deep Purple
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I don't see what this has to do with movies
These are supposedly highly trained marksmen and I would have thought it possible for them to shoot accurately to disarm and disable
If they have grounds to shoot at someone, they have to have a honest belief that life is in immediate danger, and the intention of firing at them is to stop that threat immediately.

That means firing at the body mass, not trying to be Clint Eastwood, and shooting through a soft part of a leg or arm, which wouldn't mean they were stopped.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:21
EvieJ
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That was written in the newspapers.
Were they misquoted?
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:24
Deep Purple
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Are you aware of the attitude and refusal to co-operate of the "highly trained police marksmen following the shooting dead of Mark Duggan who was unarmed (that was the decision of the inquest jury, who also gave the extraordinary verdict of "lawful killing"
An incident which completely changed my attitude to police marksmen
They gave statements and evidence. Duggan also had a gun, but this isn't about him. There are 100s of pages in other threads to moan about that.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:25
Monkey_Moo
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What do think he meant by detailing his 'inaccuracies' and using the word dangerous?
Exactly that, the witness was unreliable. And dangerous because a person could be sent to jail. You seem to think that means there was a conspiracy, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Case are thrown out all the time because once tested in court, a key witness turns out to not be reliable. This is not been 'fitted up', this is upholding the principle of proving guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:27
Monkey_Moo
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Are you aware of the attitude and refusal to co-operate of the "highly trained police marksmen following the shooting dead of Mark Duggan who was unarmed (that was the decision of the inquest jury, who also gave the extraordinary verdict of "lawful killing"
An incident which completely changed my attitude to police marksmen
I know a bus driver who assaulted a passenger and was difficult when he was investigated. It's completely changed my attitude to bus drivers.

Not.
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Old 03-01-2017, 19:29
SULLA
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How do you know this man was armed?
The Police do not kill people just for jolly.
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