DS Forums

 
 

M62 Police Shooting


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-01-2017, 19:30
Jane Doh!
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 32,699
I know a bus driver who assaulted a passenger and was difficult when he was investigated. It's completely changed my attitude to bus drivers.

Not.
I was thinking along those lines.
Jane Doh! is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 03-01-2017, 19:32
skp20040
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central London
Posts: 43,666
What do think he meant by detailing his 'inaccuracies' and using the word dangerous?
dangerous as in it could result in an unsafe conviction

Examples from a law paper

61. While there is no single “unreliable witness warning” that must be given in every case, the cases reveal two main issues that may need to be addressed, depending on the circumstances:
i) The unreliability of the witness in question; and
ii) The dangers of convicting the accused on the basis of that witness’s unsupported evidence.


70. While an unreliable witness warning is fundamentally a warning about sources of unreliability, it may also address the issue of “supporting evidence” by:
• Warning the jury that it is dangerous to convict the accused on the unsupported evidence of the witness in question; and



2

Unreliable witnesses are also described as “dangerous” or “tainted” witnesses. There does not appear to be any significance in the distinction (See R v Faure (1993) 67 A Crim R 172; R v Brooks (1999) 103 A Crim R 234; R v Ali [2002] VSCA 194; R v Sotiropoulos [1999] VSCA 115; R v Heaney [1999] VSCA 169; R v Kotzmann [1999] 2 VR 123).
skp20040 is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:37
EvieJ
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,595
Exactly that, the witness was unreliable. And dangerous because a person could be sent to jail. You seem to think that means there was a conspiracy, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Case are thrown out all the time because once tested in court, a key witness turns out to not be reliable. This is not been 'fitted up', this is upholding the principle of proving guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.
Well I suppose its open to interpretation. Unreliable is a word that might be used of a witness who wasn't wearing his glasses, or whose memory of an event was poor or conditions weren't conducive for accuracy. Dangerous IMO in this instance related to the number of lies the witness told and his claim it was this man was not to be trusted. You think otherwise as you have said above.

Conspiracy, can you elaborate on what it is you assume I 'seem to think'?
EvieJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:37
VicnBob
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 948
Were they misquoted?
As said previously, newspapers do not, and are not able to give the full information.
VicnBob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:43
EvieJ
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,595
As said previously, newspapers do not, and are not able to give the full information.
Who do you trust to tell you whats going on in the world, DS?

I saw investigator of the IPCC interviewed - it did nothing for the credibility of the officers involved.
EvieJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:43
Monkey_Moo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,273
Well I suppose its open to interpretation. Unreliable is a word that might be used of a witness who wasn't wearing his glasses, or whose memory of an event was poor or conditions weren't conducive for accuracy. Dangerous IMO in this instance related to the number of lies the witness told and his claiming it was this man was not to be trusted. You think otherwise as you have said above.

Conspiracy, can you elaborate on what it is you assume I 'seem to think'?
Its common language used in court all over the land all the time. But yes, you certainly are interpreting it in your own way.

Did the judge say they were lies? He said his testimony was unreliable.

And 'fitting someone up' means there was a conspiracy to have someone prosecuted in court.
Monkey_Moo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:47
EvieJ
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,595
The Police do not kill people just for jolly.
And they never make mistakes either
EvieJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:47
Deep Purple
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,262
Well I suppose its open to interpretation. Unreliable is a word that might be used of a witness who wasn't wearing his glasses, or whose memory of an event was poor or conditions weren't conducive for accuracy. Dangerous IMO in this instance related to the number of lies the witness told and his claim it was this man was not to be trusted. You think otherwise as you have said above.

Conspiracy, can you elaborate on what it is you assume I 'seem to think'?
There is an explanation in the post above yours.
Deep Purple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:47
Zeropoint1
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Derbyshire / UK
Posts: 3,724
Are you aware of the attitude and refusal to co-operate of the "highly trained police marksmen following the shooting dead of Mark Duggan who was unarmed (that was the decision of the inquest jury, who also gave the extraordinary verdict of "lawful killing"
An incident which completely changed my attitude to police marksmen
Once again I'm not a police officer and only know what they've told me.

But you have to remember they have to make sometimes split second decisions that can alter how events turn out, often while under a lot of intimidation and harassment.

In a different case imagine you're on patrol on a Friday or Saturday night with only one other person in an average market town (population 70,000 - 100,000) and the nearest other help is atleast 10 miles away (and half an hour)
If a situation suddenly turns violent you have to use snap decisions on what to do next, especially when the mates turn up and you're surrounded.
If you go in 'all guns blazing' you lose control of the situation, if you use every bit of patience and training things can calm down, hopefully long enough for back up to arrive.

This actually happened a few years ago when one north Derbyshire town had just two people working and another two further away in the car on a weekend. I was told at times apart from Derby city centre there were 10 police officers covering most of Derbyshire, plus a further two cars. A total of 14 people, excluding the city centre team.

When you know help is a long way away you have a very hard job which few people could do (me included)
Though I am told back then if the police were in trouble the near by bouncers would help and if they happened to floor somebody the police saw 'nothing'

Please note this was about 10 years ago and certainly not a comment on the current policing situation of which I know very little.
Zeropoint1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:49
Deep Purple
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,262
Once again I'm not a police officer and only know what they've told me.

But you have to remember they have to make sometimes split second decisions that can alter how events turn out, often while under a lot of intimidation and harassment.

In a different case imagine you're on patrol on a Friday or Saturday night with only one other person in an average market town (population 70,000 - 100,000) and the nearest other help is atleast 10 miles away (and half an hour)
If a situation suddenly turns violent you have to use snap decisions on what to do next, especially when the mates turn up and you're surrounded.
If you go in 'all guns blazing' you lose control of the situation, if you use every bit of patience and training things can calm down, hopefully long enough for back up to arrive.

This actually happened a few years ago when one north Derbyshire town had just two people working and another two further away in the car on a weekend. I was told at times apart from Derby city centre there were 10 police officers covering most of Derbyshire, plus a further two cars. A total of 14 people, excluding the city centre team.

When you know help is a long way away you have a very hard job which few people could do (me included)
Though I am told back then if the police were in trouble the near by bouncers would help and if they happened to floor somebody the police saw 'nothing'
The example you give is a common one that Officers in many forces have experienced. I know I did many times.

I think people would be astonished if they knew how many Officers were actually available in their areas most of the time.
Deep Purple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:51
Thine Wonk
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,541
Wrong post
Thine Wonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:52
Deep Purple
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,262
Wow. Thanks for changing that.
Deep Purple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:52
Thine Wonk
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,541
And they never make mistakes either

You go out there and take down armed gangs then if you think you can do it better? Or do you prefer to sit behind a keyboard making judgements?
Thine Wonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:53
VicnBob
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 948
Who do you trust to tell you whats going on in the world, DS?

I saw investigator of the IPCC interviewed - it did nothing for the credibility of the officers involved.
lol, no
VicnBob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:56
Brandy211
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 766
I imagine they've been told to as the IPCC investigation is ongoing. Young man driving expensive car = "businessman" (drug dealer).
The family did release a statement via their solicitor, stating they wish to be left alone & that his father is a well known local businessman
Brandy211 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 19:58
Deep Purple
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,262
I'm sure there will be much speculation, and accusations going on, but until the Inquest, we wont know the details of what happened, and that is a long way off.
Deep Purple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 20:02
EvieJ
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,595
Its common language used in court all over the land all the time. But yes, you certainly are interpreting it in your own way.

Did the judge say they were lies? He said his testimony was unreliable.

And 'fitting someone up' means there was a conspiracy to have someone prosecuted in court.
Are you always this patronising Monkey?

The judge detailed the inaccuracies in his statement which were numerous. Is calling a witness a liar in an open court common language and used all over the land or would a judge show a little more restraint in his assessment of someone who isn't the one on trial?
EvieJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 20:03
Zeropoint1
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Derbyshire / UK
Posts: 3,724
What was the reason for the police car keys all being left on the bonnet of one of the cars?

I was too far away from the TV to hear why it was mentioned.
Zeropoint1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 20:05
wear thefoxhat
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,776
If they have grounds to shoot at someone, they have to have a honest belief that life is in immediate danger, and the intention of firing at them is to stop that threat immediately.

That means firing at the body mass, not trying to be Clint Eastwood, and shooting through a soft part of a leg or arm, which wouldn't mean they were stopped.
Police only shoot the torso or head, the dummies used to train marksmen don't even have arms and legs to practice on. Last time I saw a Dirty Harry film Clint pretty much blew every hoodlum away!
wear thefoxhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 20:08
EvieJ
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,595
What was the reason for the police car keys all being left on the bonnet of one of the cars?

I was too far away from the TV to hear why it was mentioned.
I haven't heard an explanation. There was more than one car involved, one at the site and others in a different location which wouldn't explain why the keys were there. Maybe it was a car theft ring?
EvieJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 20:09
EvieJ
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,595
Police only shoot the torso or head, the dummies used to train marksmen don't even have arms and legs to practice on. Last time I saw a Dirty Harry film Clint pretty much blew every hoodlum away!
that'll explain it then
EvieJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 20:22
sorcha_healy27
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 68,909
And they never make mistakes either
Your attitude would change if you needed the police.
sorcha_healy27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 20:34
jp761
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In a building
Posts: 23,980
These threads always make interesting reading. So many apparent experts. But how many actually have experience with fire arms let alone coming up face to face against armed criminals. This is one of those subjects, where you can't really have much of a clue at all about it, unless you've been there.

It is better for most people to wait until clear information has come through first. Then the average joe will be able to judge these situations more fairly.
jp761 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 20:34
Zeropoint1
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Derbyshire / UK
Posts: 3,724
Your attitude would change if you needed the police.
Exactly!

I've seen people slagging off the f****** 'pigs' for harrasing them or their families. But complaining when they don't turn up or are slow to arrive.
Zeropoint1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2017, 20:37
Brandy211
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 766
I could be wrong - apologies if I am; I certainly don't want to start a long running Duggan thread - but I thought they were cleared of wrongdoing because, although a firearm was not found on Duggan, there was a gun found a few metres from him so they believed it plausible that he had discarded it.
An officer was sacked for lying, also different officers said they found the gun...Which was said to have been planted over a wall on the grass 20 feet away, but no one saw him throw it!

Why has it taken 24 hours until it has been revealed that they found a gun in Yasser Yaqub,s car in this case?
The police have apparently been "drip feeding" the press in this case according to reports.
Brandy211 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply




 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:02.