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M62 Police Shooting |
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#101 |
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,273
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Are you always this patronising Monkey?
The judge detailed the inaccuracies in his statement which were numerous. Is calling a witness a liar in an open court common language and used all over the land or would a judge show a little more restraint in his assessment of someone who isn't the one on trial? Unreliable/inaccurate witness does not = liar. There are frequently lots of reasons for a testimony to be considered unreliable. For example, a lack of supporting evidence (it's very rare to convict on one persons word against another), drunk at the time, mental heath issues, character. And when taking a statement people often, with all the best intentions, remember things incorrectly. And if if they were lying, which is entirely possible, that still does mean they are being 'fitted up', which is generally means a conspiracy by the police. |
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#102 |
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,610
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Your attitude would change if you needed the police.
Do you think they are perfect then? No mistakes, not errors of judgement, no 'bad apples'? Completely different to the rest of us human beings? |
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#103 |
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,610
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Not intending to be patronising, sorry if read it that way.
Unreliable/inaccurate witness does not = liar. There are frequently lots of reasons for a testimony to be considered unreliable. For example, a lack of supporting evidence (it's very rare to convict on one persons word against another), drunk at the time, mental heath issues, character. And when taking a statement people often, with all the best intentions, remember things incorrectly. And if if they were lying, which is entirely possible, that still does mean they are being 'fitted up', which is generally means a conspiracy by the police. |
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#104 |
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,610
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Exactly!
I've seen people slagging off the f****** 'pigs' for harrasing them or their families. But complaining when they don't turn up or are slow to arrive. |
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#105 |
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,632
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I don't see what this has to do with movies
These are supposedly highly trained marksmen and I would have thought it possible for them to shoot accurately to disarm and disable The armed police are trained to an extremely high standard, and they're trained to aim for "centre" mass because in the real world that is where you are: A: Most likely to hit the target (not miss completely, not hit something behind them) B: Most likely to cause a wound that incapacitates fast. The whole "shooting to disarm" is a bad hollywood myth*, it's practically impossible to do with real weapons against real targets that are moving. Forget shooting a gun out of a hand as that is even harder (the Mythbusters did a great segment on it, shooting at a dummy that was holding a gun, so not even a moving target, and it was done under extremely controlled conditions. Also if you hit an arm or a leg you're quite likely to hit one of major arteries with the result that the person will likely die. And whilst you're mucking around trying to do a Clint Eastwood shot, the person who you consider to be a big enough danger to require you to shoot at them is getting plenty of time to shoot you. Oh and when you do try one of the hollywood shots, you're likely to miss completely and hit someone in the distance (Hollywood never seems to show the missed shots from the "good guys" hitting some random bystander). *Up there with being pushed over a railing to fall off the balcony by a shot hitting you. |
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#106 |
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Middle England
Posts: 991
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What was the reason for the police car keys all being left on the bonnet of one of the cars?
I was too far away from the TV to hear why it was mentioned. |
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#107 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern East Anglia
Posts: 75,211
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Surprised there wasn't a thread here about this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-38492953 No doubt comparisons will be made with the Mark Duggan case but there isn't really enough information to draw any conclusions yet. The shooting, whilst bearing the hallmarks of Duggan, may have been perfectly justified if the guy drew a gun. What is different about this, is that 3 others have been arrested, presumably individuals who accompanied the shot man. We'll just have to wait and see. |
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#108 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 623
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Your attitude would change if you needed the police.
There are armed police everywhere these days, far more than there were in 2005 when the Brazilian was murdered on the London underground. He was an innocent victim going about his normal daily business. The police controller at this cock up was one Cressida Dick now apparently in the running to succeed the Commisioner Carry anything construed as suspicious by a trigger happy copper and you may suffer the same fate |
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#109 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 623
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Quote:
Do some research on shooting in real world situations.
The armed police are trained to an extremely high standard, and they're trained to aim for "centre" mass because in the real world that is where you are: A: Most likely to hit the target (not miss completely, not hit something behind them) B: Most likely to cause a wound that incapacitates fast. The whole "shooting to disarm" is a bad hollywood myth*, it's practically impossible to do with real weapons against real targets that are moving. Forget shooting a gun out of a hand as that is even harder (the Mythbusters did a great segment on it, shooting at a dummy that was holding a gun, so not even a moving target, and it was done under extremely controlled conditions. Also if you hit an arm or a leg you're quite likely to hit one of major arteries with the result that the person will likely die. And whilst you're mucking around trying to do a Clint Eastwood shot, the person who you consider to be a big enough danger to require you to shoot at them is getting plenty of time to shoot you. Oh and when you do try one of the hollywood shots, you're likely to miss completely and hit someone in the distance (Hollywood never seems to show the missed shots from the "good guys" hitting some random bystander). *Up there with being pushed over a railing to fall off the balcony by a shot hitting you. Amazing that these highly trained police marksman are not able to shoot to disarm or disable but seem able to shoot to kill |
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#110 |
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern East Anglia
Posts: 75,211
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Are you aware of the attitude and refusal to co-operate of the "highly trained police marksmen following the shooting dead of Mark Duggan who was unarmed (that was the decision of the inquest jury, who also gave the extraordinary verdict of "lawful killing"
An incident which completely changed my attitude to police marksmen Suffice it to say though, there were some distinct, unsolved anomalies. |
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#111 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,550
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Amazing that these highly trained police marksman are not able to shoot to disarm or disable but seem able to shoot to kill
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#112 |
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern East Anglia
Posts: 75,211
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Amazing that these highly trained police marksman are not able to shoot to disarm or disable but seem able to shoot to kill
I agree it would be great if they could, but it's unfortunately just not possible. I believe the police are using tasers instead of guns more frequently than they once did though, and wherever possible, of course.. |
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#113 |
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,610
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We discussed Duggan endlessly on here in a thread which ran, off and on, for over 4 years. In the end, we weren't that much further forward in determining exactly what happened, than we were at the start.
Suffice it to say though, there were some distinct, unsolved anomalies. |
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#114 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern East Anglia
Posts: 75,211
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Unfortunately.
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#115 |
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Derbyshire / UK
Posts: 3,727
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I don't recall seeing anything like that in this thread, or even in the reporting of the story.
Not the actual police who are out often with little help immediately available and have to make snap life or death decisions. Also those who complain about them but also complain when they need them. |
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#116 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 32,699
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Amazing that these highly trained police marksman are not able to shoot to disarm or disable but seem able to shoot to kill
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#117 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Derbyshire / UK
Posts: 3,727
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You really have no understanding.
Real life is nothing like it's portrayed in an action movie but for some reason it's taken as fact. We also have those who read about weapons and guns in completely controlled situations and believe it's like that when faced with an criminal known to carry weapons. |
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#118 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 131
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Quote:
Would it?
Do you think they are perfect then? No mistakes, not errors of judgement, no 'bad apples'? Completely different to the rest of us human beings? |
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#119 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 774
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Quote:
Amazing that these highly trained police marksman are not able to shoot to disarm or disable but seem able to shoot to kill
Jermaine Baker was found to be unarmed. At a meeting the IPCC said they were unable to say whether Jermaine Baker was asleep or not at the time he was shot. They also said Jermaine wasn't on any police lists as a gang member, which the police/press initially led the public to believe. There were no recordings or cctv... |
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#120 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Leicester!!!
Posts: 13,032
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The family did release a statement via their solicitor, stating they wish to be left alone & that his father is a well known local businessman
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#121 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,275
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Quote:
Amazing that these highly trained police marksman are not able to shoot to disarm or disable but seem able to shoot to kill
If you need to shoot someone, it is because there is a serious threat to life. Shooting at a leg would not be the answer. |
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#122 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 623
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Quote:
You really have no understanding.
Explain to me how a farmer who has no basic training other than practice can shoot a rabbit, or those who shoot game for fun can hit a pheasant, both at some sdistance, yet a highly trained police marksman can not hit to disable or disarm |
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#123 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central London
Posts: 43,686
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Quote:
What was the reason for the police car keys all being left on the bonnet of one of the cars?
I was too far away from the TV to hear why it was mentioned. |
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#124 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 623
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Quote:
Have you not bothered reading all the explanations for that?
If you need to shoot someone, it is because there is a serious threat to life. Shooting at a leg would not be the answer. I do not accept the explanations, I do not swallow the police spin and pr |
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#125 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central London
Posts: 43,686
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Quote:
I do not accept the explanations, I do not swallow the police spin and pr
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