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M62 Police Shooting |
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#151 |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,795
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Quote:
Well you could try and give me some of yours which you clearly believe you have
Explain to me how a farmer who has no basic training other than practice can shoot a rabbit, or those who shoot game for fun can hit a pheasant, both at some sdistance, yet a highly trained police marksman can not hit to disable or disarm Two other major differences are that pheasants and rabbits don't shoot back and it also doesn't really matter if the farmer misses, whereas if the police officer misses then they, another officer or a member of the public may end up dead. |
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#152 |
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,273
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Quote:
Well you could try and give me some of yours which you clearly believe you have
Explain to me how a farmer who has no basic training other than practice can shoot a rabbit, or those who shoot game for fun can hit a pheasant, both at some sdistance, yet a highly trained police marksman can not hit to disable or disarm As for the farmer comparison, I grew up in a rural area and I have been on shoots with farmers (rifles and shotguns). They often miss, or just mame (finished by a ground shot or the gun dog). But it's ok because they don't return fire. Police can not work with those odds, they would be far to dangerous for the public and the officers. Once the decision is made that a shot is required, they do it so there is highest possible chance of success and not get into a shootout. There are other reasons why a shotgun is a very poor choice as a police weapon in many situations (although do have them, as they suit certain conditions). |
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#153 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 769
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It's already been explained that hitting a limb very often will not prevent a person returning fire, its been covered a number of times, is it that you just don't like the answer for some reason?
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#154 |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: The Mysterious East
Posts: 5,815
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Quote:
Well you could try and give me some of yours which you clearly believe you have
Explain to me how a farmer who has no basic training other than practice can shoot a rabbit, or those who shoot game for fun can hit a pheasant, both at some distance, yet a highly trained police marksman can not hit to disable or disarm What are the consequences if they miss? |
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#155 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dewsbury, England
Posts: 8,683
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There is speculation that Yasser Yaqub was a drug dealer. If that is true, he wasn't the only drug dealer in Huddersfield and I also doubt he was the only drug dealer in Huddersfield who has a gun.
Why single him out? What is the point of killing one drug dealer if the other drug dealers in Huddersfield the police know about are free to go on dealing? |
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#156 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 32,699
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Unarmed people that are shot wouldn't return fire anyway.
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#157 |
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,280
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Good.
The police should claim the cost of the bullets from the deceased estate. |
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#158 |
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Derbyshire / UK
Posts: 3,724
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There is speculation that Yasser Yaqub was a drug dealer. If that is true, he wasn't the only drug dealer in Huddersfield and I also doubt he was the only drug dealer in Huddersfield who has a gun.
Why single him out? What is the point of killing one drug dealer if the other drug dealers in Huddersfield the police know about are free to go on dealing? By I assume for the aremed team to be ready and there the police must have had very compelling intelligence that said he (or any passengers) posed a risk to another person or the police. I don't imagine the armed squad attend every arrest in the hope of some action. From personal experience in Brighton around 1998 - 2004 the police turned a relatively blind eye to the 'minor' dealers. I've been openly offered drugs on the street and they didn't flintch when the police walked by. Once again I'm not saying that was the case then it's only personal experience. The other week I walked to the pub at night drinking a can of lager, they could see I was behaving and not drunk so they just walked by. Obviously if I'd have noticed them first I would have put it in my coat pocket or indeed any other member of the public. |
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#159 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central London
Posts: 43,667
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Quote:
There is speculation that Yasser Yaqub was a drug dealer. If that is true, he wasn't the only drug dealer in Huddersfield and I also doubt he was the only drug dealer in Huddersfield who has a gun.
Why single him out? What is the point of killing one drug dealer if the other drug dealers in Huddersfield the police know about are free to go on dealing? But this is all speculation and there is no evidence that this was drugs related or that he was a dealer |
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#160 |
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,273
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Quote:
There is speculation that Yasser Yaqub was a drug dealer. If that is true, he wasn't the only drug dealer in Huddersfield and I also doubt he was the only drug dealer in Huddersfield who has a gun.
Why single him out? What is the point of killing one drug dealer if the other drug dealers in Huddersfield the police know about are free to go on dealing? |
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#161 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 24,059
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Quote:
There is speculation that Yasser Yaqub was a drug dealer. If that is true, he wasn't the only drug dealer in Huddersfield and I also doubt he was the only drug dealer in Huddersfield who has a gun.
Why single him out? What is the point of killing one drug dealer if the other drug dealers in Huddersfield the police know about are free to go on dealing? |
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#162 |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: The Mysterious East
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They singled him out, most likely, because they had intelligence that he was a serious threat to life. The fact that he was a drug dealer is not why he was shot. And I don't for one second think they police know about other people with illegal firearms, dealers or otherwise, and allow them to go about their business or turn a blind eye.
http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-...cting-12399299 |
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#163 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Under your Bed
Posts: 8,137
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http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-...birkby-4998267 Looks like the same man was involved in a few things.
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#164 |
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,632
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In real life people are killed needlessly by both criminals and police. If thats the problem, not shooting to kill is the solution. I don't see why people (not just directed at you) think its so strange to suggest it.
They shoot for centre mass. It's impossible to shoot to wound or disarm or any other such nonsense without at least the same risk of death of the suspect, and a much higher risk to bystanders. Unfortunately shooting at the centre mass means you risk hitting the heart, spine and other vital body parts, but then if you are John Wayne/Deadshot and shoot at the arm or leg there is also a good chance you'll kill the suspect (nick the femoral artery for example and the suspect can bleed out very fast). There is no such thing as a guarantied non lethal shot that will disarm or incapacitate a suspect and do it fast enough to be of use in the the real world* So the police are trained to go for the shot that incapacitates quickest, and is least likely to miss, which means centre mass and the risk of death, as the line between incapacitate and kill is pretty much razer thin (consider that the same drugs they give you in hospital to knock you out under pretty much ideal conditions can and do also kill a few patients a year). It should tell you something that pretty much the first thing the police will do after a shooting, as soon as it's reasonably safe to do so is to render first aid to the suspect if needed (IIRC all the armed police have a reasonable level of first aid training, including how to help with stabbing/gunshots).. They'll also usually have an ambulance called to provide support if they know there is a chance of shots being fired,, usually waiting somewhere safe but close by. Many people shot by UK police do survive due to the combination of a limited number of shots fired, stopping fire once the suspect is down, and the policy of providing first aid, but you only tend to hear of the cases where someone dies, not the cases where the suspect survives, or the officers don't have to open fire (but do draw their weapons). *In much the same way there is no instant knock out gas that you can use safely on people that won't either run a high risk of death from it, or the person noticing and taking action. |
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#165 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 619
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I'll repeat what I think I posted earlier.
They shoot for centre mass. It's impossible to shoot to wound or disarm or any other such nonsense without at least the same risk of death of the suspect, and a much higher risk to bystanders. Unfortunately shooting at the centre mass means you risk hitting the heart, spine and other vital body parts, but then if you are John Wayne/Deadshot and shoot at the arm or leg there is also a good chance you'll kill the suspect (nick the femoral artery for example and the suspect can bleed out very fast). There is no such thing as a guarantied non lethal shot that will disarm or incapacitate a suspect and do it fast enough to be of use in the the real world* So the police are trained to go for the shot that incapacitates quickest, and is least likely to miss, which means centre mass and the risk of death, as the line between incapacitate and kill is pretty much razer thin (consider that the same drugs they give you in hospital to knock you out under pretty much ideal conditions can and do also kill a few patients a year). It should tell you something that pretty much the first thing the police will do after a shooting, as soon as it's reasonably safe to do so is to render first aid to the suspect if needed (IIRC all the armed police have a reasonable level of first aid training, including how to help with stabbing/gunshots).. They'll also usually have an ambulance called to provide support if they know there is a chance of shots being fired,, usually waiting somewhere safe but close by. Many people shot by UK police do survive due to the combination of a limited number of shots fired, stopping fire once the suspect is down, and the policy of providing first aid, but you only tend to hear of the cases where someone dies, not the cases where the suspect survives, or the officers don't have to open fire (but do draw their weapons). *In much the same way there is no instant knock out gas that you can use safely on people that won't either run a high risk of death from it, or the person noticing and taking action. "The BBC's home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw said the M62 incident was the fifth fatal police shooting in England and Wales in the past nine months and the first involving West Yorkshire Police since December 2010. Recent police shootings November 2016: Lewis Skelton, 31, was Tasered and shot dead by Humberside Police in Hull, amid reports he was "running around with an axe". November 2016: Josh Pitt, 24, died after being shot by a firearms officer in Luton as Bedfordshire Police responded to reports that a woman had been assaulted. May 2016: William Smith, 36, was shot dead in Goudhurst, Kent, while on bail in connection with the death of 73-year-old Roy Blackman. March 2016: James Wilson, 24, died in hospital after being shot by Northumbria Police in South Shields after police responded to reports a man was holding a handgun." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38501122 |
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#166 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,266
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Quote:
There is speculation that Yasser Yaqub was a drug dealer. If that is true, he wasn't the only drug dealer in Huddersfield and I also doubt he was the only drug dealer in Huddersfield who has a gun.
Why single him out? What is the point of killing one drug dealer if the other drug dealers in Huddersfield the police know about are free to go on dealing? |
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#167 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,266
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Quote:
Well you could try and give me some of yours which you clearly believe you have
Explain to me how a farmer who has no basic training other than practice can shoot a rabbit, or those who shoot game for fun can hit a pheasant, both at some sdistance, yet a highly trained police marksman can not hit to disable or disarm The police have to have grounds to believe life is in immediate danger before they can shoot someone, and that means they are entitled to stop someone by shooting them in a way to stop that threat. Trying to aim for limbs is not going to do that. Also, if they were to try and shoot to wound, they wouldn't have the grounds required to use potentially lethal force. |
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#168 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,621
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Quote:
In real life people are killed needlessly by both criminals and police. If thats the problem, not shooting to kill is the solution. I don't see why people (not just directed at you) think its so strange to suggest it.
Somebody potentially threatening with a firearm can only be dealt with properly in one way. If it turns out they had a fake gun etc then it's only their fault. |
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#169 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
Posts: 51,266
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Quote:
In real life people are killed needlessly by both criminals and police. If thats the problem, not shooting to kill is the solution. I don't see why people (not just directed at you) think its so strange to suggest it.
You seem to be suggesting that the police can shoot potentially dangerous people in the leg, but they cant. They cant just shoot people, unless there is a genuine threat to life, and if that scenario exists, then shooting to stop is the only option. Shooting someone in the leg, when the threat to life does not exist would not be reasonable force. |
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#170 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 9,454
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Quote:
Why single him out? What is the point of killing one drug dealer if the other drug dealers in Huddersfield the police know about are free to go on dealing?
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#171 |
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,601
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This is priceless. Thankfully many have pointed out the stupidity of what you're trying to compare.
The police have to have grounds to believe life is in immediate danger before they can shoot someone, and that means they are entitled to stop someone by shooting them in a way to stop that threat. Trying to aim for limbs is not going to do that. Also, if they were to try and shoot to wound, they wouldn't have the grounds required to use potentially lethal force. |
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#172 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 769
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Quote:
There is speculation that Yasser Yaqub was a drug dealer. If that is true, he wasn't the only drug dealer in Huddersfield and I also doubt he was the only drug dealer in Huddersfield who has a gun.
Why single him out? What is the point of killing one drug dealer if the other drug dealers in Huddersfield the police know about are free to go on dealing? How would police go about that? The other 5 that were arrested that day are under armed guard in hospital. The nature of his career could have meant that others lost their lives. Yassur Yaqub was shot himself two years ago. Police would have received info that he actually had a gun at that time. |
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#173 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 32,699
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Quote:
"The BBC's home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw said the M62 incident was the fifth fatal police shooting in England and Wales in the past nine months and the first involving West Yorkshire Police since December 2010.
Recent police shootings November 2016: Lewis Skelton, 31, was Tasered and shot dead by Humberside Police in Hull, amid reports he was "running around with an axe". November 2016: Josh Pitt, 24, died after being shot by a firearms officer in Luton as Bedfordshire Police responded to reports that a woman had been assaulted. May 2016: William Smith, 36, was shot dead in Goudhurst, Kent, while on bail in connection with the death of 73-year-old Roy Blackman. March 2016: James Wilson, 24, died in hospital after being shot by Northumbria Police in South Shields after police responded to reports a man was holding a handgun." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38501122 |
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#174 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 9,173
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Not sure I would read that as a Judge saying he was being fitted up , I read it as a Judge saying with that witness despite picking him out of an ID parade based on the rest of his testimony he was unreliable and therefore you could not guarantee a safe conviction
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#175 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 769
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Or they can simply say they believed there was a danger to life, intimidate potential witnesses, lie during the investigation and garner public support via character assassination. Worked for them with Duggan didn't it?
Even though many of those people have also been arrested/jailed over the years for exactly the same crimes that they arrest others for on a daily basis. Lying, fraud, sex crimes, theft, gbh, assault...Murder |
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