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Stacy Francis: Scientologist


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Old Today, 00:24
Panda Eyes
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Thank you Panda Eyes, that was the documentary I watched. People should never estimate this outfit.
You're welcome Cat....yup they're a piece of work.
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Old Today, 00:27
WhatJoeThinks
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They deserve every disparagy going. Short of agreeing to Nazi scientists on the show, this cult/religion or whatever you wish to call them are despicable and dangerous
I've watched one or two documentaries about them, and although the details escape me I do agree that they're despicable. That doesn't mean that they aren't a religion though. Plenty of religions behave despicably. I only chipped in to point out that they are not actually a cult any more than, say, Donald Trump is an actual asshole. He's a man, and people think of him as an asshole. Scientology is a religion, and people think of it as a cult.
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Old Today, 00:35
Vicky8675309
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Scientologists are no more delusional than the rest of the fanatics

edit: they are all freaks imo
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Old Today, 00:36
Panda Eyes
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I've watched one or two documentaries about them, and although the details escape me I do agree that they're despicable. That doesn't mean that they aren't a religion though. Plenty of religions behave despicably. I only chipped in to point out that they are not actually a cult any more than, say, Donald Trump is an actual asshole. He's a man, and people think of him as an asshole. Scientology is a religion, and people think of it as a cult.

It's a bit of a minefield though isn't it, because even within 'established' religions there are cult-like off shoots that operate under the banner and protection (for tax purposes) of the established original? They can still be called cults if they use cult methodology to proselytise, retain and fleece members whether or not the tax man recognises them and affords them those privileges.
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Old Today, 00:40
WhatJoeThinks
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It's a bit of a minefield though isn't it, because even within 'established' religions there are cult-like off shoots that operate under the banner and protection (for tax purposes) of the established original? They can still be called cults if they use cult methodology to proselytise, retain and fleece members whether or not the tax man recognises them and affords them those privileges.
How do you distinguish cult methodology from established religious methodology?
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Old Today, 00:47
patsylimerick
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I don't understand the objection to calling it a cult. Oxford definition 'A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object'. By that definition so is Christianity a cult. So is Islam etc. etc. ad infinitum.

The broader accepted definition sociologically defines a cult as something that breaks from the religious tradition of the situated culture; composed of individuals who seek or claim to have experienced mystical, psychic or ecstatic experiences and is focussed on the problems of the individual.

By all of these accepted definitions Scientology is a cult.
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Old Today, 00:49
Panda Eyes
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How do you distinguish cult methodology from established religious methodology?
I don't know. May be things like brainwashing, torture, and cutting people off from friends and family that are non-believing heretics or escapees.
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Old Today, 00:52
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I don't know. May be things like brainwashing, torture, and cutting people off from friends and family that are non-believing heretics or escapees.
Indeed. And the fact that they are legitimate as a religion is terrifying.
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Old Today, 00:59
WhatJoeThinks
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I don't understand the objection to calling it a cult. Oxford definition 'A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object'. By that definition so is Christianity a cult. So is Islam etc. etc. ad infinitum.

The broader accepted definition sociologically defines a cult as something that breaks from the religious tradition of the situated culture; composed of individuals who seek or claim to have experienced mystical, psychic or ecstatic experiences and is focussed on the problems of the individual.

By all of these accepted definitions Scientology is a cult.
I wasn't objecting to anyone calling it a cult. You're welcome to call it what you want. The word cult is undoubtedly a pejorative though, and there is no real distinction that doesn't also include accepted, established religions as cults. I'm sure that native Americans didn't follow Christianity until Europeans landed there, but most Christians would object to Christianity being called a cult (because it's pejorative).

Scientology is about 50 years old. Are we saying that given enough time it will transition from cult to religion?

Whatever definition you choose I can guarantee that you will have to carefully cherry pick in order to make 'acceptable' religions exempt from that label, while ensuring that 'bad' religions are classed as cults.
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Old Today, 01:01
Vicky8675309
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I found this on the internet (not sure how reliable but seems credible):

20 reasons the Church of Scientology is a cult and a fraud
By Jeffrey Augustine

1. Cult: The hallmark of a cult is that one person — the cult leader — has all the power and complete control of the money. David Miscavige is a cult leader who has all the power and complete control of the money. This was true of founder L. Ron Hubbard when he was alive.

2. Cult: There are no internal checks and balances on David Miscavige’s power.

3. Fraud: David Miscavige was never elected by Scientologists to lead the Church of Scientology. Rather, Miscavige is a dictator who clawed his way to power in a series of purges.

4. Fraud: The form of Church governance represented to the IRS in Scientology’s 1023 application was a fraud. The Scientology boards and directors represented to the IRS are rubber stamps without any actual power.

5. Cult and Fraud: Scientology is a cult and a fraud because it lies to its own members and to the public about L. Ron Hubbard. See: 25 of the biggest lies told by L. Ron Hubbard and the Church of Scientology.

6. Cult and Fraud: The Church of Scientology runs an intelligence-gathering and Fair Game operation called the Office of Special Affairs (OSA). The purpose of OSA is to attack perceived Church enemies and engage in character assassination, smears, and to get people fired from their jobs. Because OSA is funded with tax exempt dollars it is a fraud upon the governments and taxpayers of all nations where OSA operates.

7. Fraud: The Sea Org is a fraud on its face because it does not actually exist. Per David Miscavige’s attorney Wallace Jefferson in his 2014 Writ of Mandamus, the Sea Org cannot have any members or volunteers and has no physical or legal existence:

“Plaintiff asserts that Mr. Miscavige exercised control because he leads the Sea Organization, a religious order within Scientology. But the ‘Sea Org’ is not a corporate entity; it has no physical or legal existence. It is not incorporated or established pursuant to legal formalities. It has no constitution, charter or bylaws, and no formal or informal ecclesiastical, corporate, or other management structure. It has no directors, officers, managing agents, or other executives; no employees, staff members, or volunteers; no income; no disbursements, no bank accounts or other assets; no liabilities; no stationery; no office, home, address, or telephone number. It does not create or maintain any financial, personnel, or other records. It can neither give nor receive orders because it has no one to either give or receive them or to carry them out. It cannot sue or be sued.”

8. Fraud: While David Miscavige’s attorney Wallace Jefferson states in the quote above that the Sea Org can have no volunteers, , the official Scientology.org website section “What is the Sea Org?” states that Sea Org members are volunteers:

As volunteers and members of a religious order, Sea Organization members work long hours and live communally with housing, meals, uniforms, medical and dental care, transport and all expenses associated with their duties provided by the Church. They also receive an allowance to purchase personal items, as all of their other expenses are fully covered by the Church.

The Sea Org is one of the most heinous frauds in the Church of Scientology, for even Sea Org members are lied to by the Church about the SO’s legal non-existence.

9. Fraud: Given that the Sea Org does not exist in any way whatsoever, the term “Sea Org” is just a phrase used to mislead, deceive, and con people into working for the Church of Scientology without being called employees, thus depriving these people to their rights to minimum wage, overtime, healthcare insurance, the right to sue their employer, or any other worker protections.

10. Fraud: Scientologists and Scientology attorneys lie to the public about Church membership and growth. Scientology does not have millions of members. No independent third party has ever been allowed to audit Scientology membership records. The declining membership is demonstrable in numerous empirical terms: To choose just one, shrinking attendance at Church events, calling for the renting of smaller venues. In Los Angeles, the downgrade from the LA Shrine Auditoroum (capacity 6,300) to the Kodak Center (capacity 3,332) is instructive.

11. Cult and Fraud: The Church of Scientology video records all auditing sessions. This is allegedly done for training purposes. However, the confidential contents of auditing sessions are routinely used by OSA to attack, slander, defame, and embarrass Scientologists who leave the Church and speak out against the abuses of Scientology.

12. Cult: The Church of Scientology teaches its members to lie when needed in order to protect the Church.

13. Cult: The Church of Scientology puts its own members through brutal interrogations called security checks, or “sec checks.”

14. Cult: The Church of Scientology breaks up families and friendships through its brutal policy of Disconnection. (A couple of recent examples — Sara Goldberg and Sylvia DeWall.)

15. Cult: The Church of Scientology indoctrinates and controls its own members through a program of isolation, thought-stopping, mind control, milieu control, and propaganda.

16. Fraud: In exchange for money, the Church of Scientology has long promised its members miraculous spiritual powers it cannot actually deliver.

17. Cult: The Church of Scientology makes its members sign an unconscionable contract which allows the Church to kidnap them and hold them against their will if they are deemed “Type III” (psychotic) by the Church. This “kidnap contract” was put in place after the negligent death of Scientologist Lisa McPherson.

18. Fraud: The Church of Scientology raises money for a David Miscavige slush fund called the International Association of Scientologists. Under IRS rules, IAS donations are “undesignated” and can be spent for anything Miscavige sees fit. IAS donations can fund Fair Game campaigns, lawyers, and private investigators. The fraud here is that IAS monies are not spent in the public benefit. To cement the IAS fraud, Scientology makes its members sign a contract stating that all donations to the IAS are nonrefundable.

19. Fraud: The Church of Scientology raises money from its members for the purchase of unneeded buildings it calls “Ideal Orgs.” These largely empty buildings are tax free real estate purchases.

20. Fraud: The Church of Scientology offers no financial transparency whatsoever to its members or the public. Indeed, it was the Underground Bunker that broke the story of the IRS records showing a Church book value of $1.5 billion.
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Old Today, 01:02
patsylimerick
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I wasn't objecting to anyone calling it a cult. You're welcome to call it what you want. The word cult is undoubtedly a pejorative though, and there is no real distinction that doesn't also include accepted, established religions as cults. I'm sure that native Americans didn't follow Christianity until Europeans landed there, but most Christians would object to Christianity being called a cult (because it's pejorative).

Scientology is about 50 years old. Are we saying that given enough time it will transition from cult to religion?

Whatever definition you choose I can guarantee that you will have to carefully cherry pick in order to make 'acceptable' religions exempt from that label, while ensuring that 'bad' religions are classed as cults.
But you surely acknowledge that there are accepted behaviours associated with cults. Like taking money. Cutting off contact from loved ones. Demanding unquestioning allegiance. Etc. etc. No careful cherry picking required. I'm an atheist, but I think anyone with even half their natural senses can see the difference between, for example, C of E and Scientology.
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Old Today, 01:02
WhatJoeThinks
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I don't know. May be things like brainwashing, torture, and cutting people off from friends and family that are non-believing heretics or escapees.
My best mate used to be a Jehovah's Witness. His main gripe with them was the fact that, when he was a child, he was made to excommunicate his best friend at the time. The elders of his mother's church still insist that she doesn't talk to him anymore. Thankfully she sidesteps that particular teaching.
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Old Today, 01:05
Vicky8675309
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I googled "Is Scientology a Cult". The first link was a link to a scientology site (I skipped that link) and the second link had what I copied/pasted above (had more stuff but it was long enough).
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Old Today, 01:06
WhatJoeThinks
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But you surely acknowledge that there are accepted behaviours associated with cults. Like taking money. Cutting off contact from loved ones. Demanding unquestioning allegiance. Etc. etc. No careful cherry picking required. I'm an atheist, but I think anyone with even half their natural senses can see the difference between, for example, C of E and Scientology.
Sounds like a lot of religions, doesn't it?

If it makes you feel any better I can certainly see the difference between the Church of England and Scientology, but they are both religions.
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Old Today, 01:08
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I googled "Is Scientology a Cult". The first link was a link to a scientology site (I skipped that link) and the second link had what I copied/pasted above (had more stuff but it was long enough).
Good find Vicky. Enough for enquirers to chew.
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Old Today, 01:09
Vicky8675309
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A while back I read a good book called The God Delusion
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Old Today, 01:10
davidjones1954
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Has Stacy mentioned she's a Scientologist or that she also has links to the Nation of Islam? (the two cults are very close these days).

Stacy's well-known to us cult-watchers.
Why on earth would Stacey announce her religion as soon as she entered the house?

Has anyone else announced what their religion is?
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Old Today, 01:13
patsylimerick
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Sounds like a lot of religions, doesn't it?

If it makes you feel any better I can certainly see the difference between the Church of England and Scientology, but they are both religions.
No it doesn't sound like a lot of religions, at all. The C of E doesn't demand unfailing allegiance. It doesn't demand that cut off contact from all loved ones who don't subscribe to the same beliefs. It doesn't require you to give up all; a prescribed amount or any, in fact, of your income.

It's not about 'making me feel better'. Let's just consider the facts.
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Old Today, 01:14
red_amber
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Wow, I'm no fan of scientology, but it's silly to judge someone and think you know that person inside and out, purely based on their religion. Sounds a little prejudiced to me.
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Old Today, 01:15
WhatJoeThinks
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Good find Vicky. Enough for enquirers to chew.
If you try, you can pick any one of the points listed and draw a direct parallel with one or more other accepted religions.
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Old Today, 01:17
patsylimerick
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Wow, I'm no fan of scientology, but it's silly to judge someone and think you know that person inside and out, purely based on their religion. Sounds a little prejudiced to me.
In general, I'd agree. But in the case of Scientology? Not so much. Having read and watched a bit on the subject I'd have serious concerns about the mental wellbeing of anyone who would a) not bother to find out a little bit more about what it is they support or b) knowing what it is they support, continue to do so.
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Old Today, 01:17
davidjones1954
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Wow, I'm no fan of scientology, but it's silly to judge someone and think you know that person inside and out, purely based on their religion. Sounds a little prejudiced to me.
I agree amber. You have to be respectful of others beliefs.

Who are we to judge what religion one should follow?

Can you imagine if someone created a thread on here saying has Ray J announced he's a Muslim?
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Old Today, 01:19
Vicky8675309
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If you try, you can pick any one of the points listed and draw a direct parallel with one or more other accepted religions.
All organized/formal religions are ridiculous imo but I doubt anyone cares about my opinion Opinions are like assholes....or whatever the cliche is
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Old Today, 01:19
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Why on earth would Stacey announce her religion as soon as she entered the house?

Has anyone else announced what their religion is?
She obviously feels superior or powerful in some way.
I don't know anyone personally who announces their beliefs on entrance to anywhere
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Old Today, 01:21
davidjones1954
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She obviously feels superior or powerful in some way.
I don't know anyone personally who announces their beliefs on entrance to anywhere
She didn't announce her religion though and that's the point. Why on earth would she?
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