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more scum that shouldn't be here
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anne_666
Yesterday, 14:26
Originally Posted by Galaxy266:
“The sooner we leave the EU the better. We can then re-establish border controls and keep these undesirable people out of our county.
This is why people voted to leave. It's not about the money, it's about having effective control of our borders and keeping such undesirable people out.”

The UK isn't part of the Shengen Zone, we don't need to re-establish border controls because we've never given them up. How will Brexit keep out people who wish to visit the UK who you think are "undesirable"?
Farage might have said it, only to suit his own political aims, but he is more than a bit of a fibber.

Originally Posted by RobinOfLoxley:
“I see it more as Shit-Stirring Tosh, myself, specifically designed to whip up hysteria.”

It's certainly worked. I notice they didn't bother pointing out the reality, not that I would expect them to have the first clue what that is or care. It has to rank as one of their most easily misleading best.

Originally Posted by Nostlagic:
“This is why i don't support the EU freedom of movement. Though it's a good thing it may be coming to an end. Don't need riff raff like this coming through.”

How do you think ending Shengen Zone freedom of movement will stop it?

Originally Posted by cessna:
“This brings in to question how many sleepers and terrorists are the UK border protection officials allowing or ignoring that are able to enter the UK without some form of screening or checking. . While its understandable that some determined terrorists and undesirables will always find ways of entry, there must be methods available to tackle this problem instead of our politicians sitting on hands and quietly obeying EU rules on Freedom of Travel that work against our interests so far as security is involved. With the present government and its opposition occupying Parliament it seems our adversaries have little cause for concern so far as ease of entry into the UK is involved.”

Yeah, of course, everyone's sitting on their hands doing nothing about anything.
How many terrorist attacks have we had? The UK is probably one of the safest countries in the world right now and even though we're under threat of retaliation from IS.
Chris Frost
Yesterday, 14:48
Originally Posted by blueblade:
“Oh sure, of course there are, but from where I and a lot of other people are standing, it does appear that the EU is a free funnel for any and all criminals to enter - and from there to us, potentially”

The UK isn't part of the Schengen area under its current terms of EU membership. So whilst I said thst people can move freely from Holland to England that really isn't the case in practice. We still have border controll and the need for passports. Even after we leave, that part won't change. So if our border controls will remain the same whether we are in or out, and our current border controld failed to stop this guy because - and this bit is important - he's too low a priority criminal to be flagged, then how exactly do you see being outside of the EU improving that situation?

To put it another way , the UK has taken in people from all over the world, some of whom turned out to have committed some terrible crimes before arive here. Our border controls and checks failed to identify them too. The simple fact is that there's insufficient data from a lot of countries about their people to filter 100% of undesirables, so it doesn't matter what you and those who you think share your views believe. Sorry, but it just won't change a thing.

Originally Posted by blueblade:
“You've just admitted the role of the EU there.”

See above.

Add to that that this could just as easily have been a Dutch national. My guess is you're agitated by this because the guy looks a bit "foreign".


Originally Posted by blueblade:
“Specious bullshit. I think you are underestimating the intelligence of people in deciding for themselves what is right and wrong.”

Look, just because a whole bunch of people wave pitchforks and burning torches and scream 'burn the witch' it doesn't make them right.

Originally Posted by blueblade:
“Yes, the Mail have obviously put their slant on it, but even if reported as a series of factual bullet points, the effect would still have been the same.”

The Mail's slant really is quite the point though. I would welcome a factual piece that went on to explain to its readers the issues as to why people like Piruz can get through, and then put this one incident in to perspective against the millions of travel movements in and out of the country each year. But that's not what we got, was it?

Originally Posted by blueblade:
“The truth never hurts. But in this case it's just your opinion, not backed up by any empirical evidence. The range of people who read the Mail, as with any popular publication, is as varied as the British weather. You could probably more accurately narrow down the type of person who reads the Guardian, but the Mail is just another tabloid - albeit with a fantastic free to access website, containing a massive range of news and other stories. Sure some people hate them, but others feel just the opposite. Probably the majority are completely indifferent.”

The evidence is there for everyone to see. It is printed in black and white on the pages of the paper and yet more evidence is presented on the Web site.

If you want more evidence then have a look in to why Lego pulled its advertising from the Daily Mail.


Originally Posted by blueblade:
“You're suggesting we should love Piruz?”

You suggested I have underestimated your intelligence; then you go and make a comment like that. Poor, very poor.
jjwales
Yesterday, 14:54
Originally Posted by MinnieMinz:
“Yes. Totally agree. Ok so beheaded someone, said sorry I was a bit mad and served his time. No mention of the family of the woman he beheaded or their thoughts. Then within days he attacks to policemen with a hammer. But oh no, we must abide by the rules and allow him his "human rights".”

What human rights do you want to deny him?

Quote:
“ Certain band wagoner posters once again only interested because he's an immigrant and they want to defend him and call everyone else racist and bring up borders and brexit and all that all over again as some kind of idiotic attack/defence.. It's getting really bloody old. ”

Has anyone actually defended him or called anyone racist, or did you make that up?
cessna
Yesterday, 15:40
[quote=anne_666 l

Yeah, of course, everyone's sitting on their hands doing nothing about anything.
How many terrorist attacks have we had? The UK is probably one of the safest countries in the world right now and even though we're under threat of retaliation from IS.[/QUOTE]

>>>

My point was aimed at the ease of entry into the UK regarding uncontrolled mass immigration with its widely acknowledged dangers of cloaking within its ranks a percentage of terrorists entry. Leaving aside police estimates of some 4000 terrorist sleepers lying low as sleepers in GB, While we have enjoyed a period of being All quiet on the terrorist front for some time does not imply it will always remain so here in GB. Some are of the opinion that our ineffective Govt would do well to study some of the methods used within Australia and the US where standards of supervising entry and exit into their countries are of far higher standards compared to the methods, or lack of standards of security within UK passport control by comparison.
blueblade
Yesterday, 15:40
Originally Posted by Chris Frost:
“The UK isn't part of the Schengen area under its current terms of EU membership. So whilst I said thst people can move freely from Holland to England that really isn't the case in practice. We still have border controll and the need for passports. Even after we leave, that part won't change. So if our border controls will remain the same whether we are in or out, and our current border controld failed to stop this guy because - and this bit is important - he's too low a priority criminal to be flagged, then how exactly do you see being outside of the EU improving that situation?

To put it another way , the UK has taken in people from all over the world, some of whom turned out to have committed some terrible crimes before arive here. Our border controls and checks failed to identify them too. The simple fact is that there's insufficient data from a lot of countries about their people to filter 100% of undesirables, so it doesn't matter what you and those who you think share your views believe. Sorry, but it just won't change a thing. ”

Whoosh !!!

I'm well aware that we are not a member of the Schengen agreement (thank Christ !!!), but while we are a member of the EU, anyone of German, Dutch or whatever other nationality, can then travel freely to the UK. That may well include an influx of criminals and terrorists.

Being a member of Schengen, which all new EU members are unable to opt out of, changes a lot. So it's a good job we never joined.

Yes, there will always be some criminals who slip through the net, but it's incredibly irresponsible to slide into the complacent position of assuming nothing can be done to alter the current situation.

Quote:
“Add to that that this could just as easily have been a Dutch national. My guess is you're agitated by this because the guy looks a bit "foreign".”

A reminder of what you said:-

Quote:
“The US can't really stop criminals travelling from state to state. A person with a spent conviction for murder can travel from say New York to LA with no issues at all. That's exactly what happened with Piruz, but instead of NY to LA it was Holland to England.”

That's effectively admitting the role of the EU. Your analogy to travel between US states where there is no border control between the states, is akin to the rules pertaining to EU nationals.

By the way, accusing me of racism is extremely unfair. If you think I would feel any different about anybody with his criminal record, you are very much mistaken.

Quote:
“Look, just because a whole bunch of people wave pitchforks and burning torches and scream 'burn the witch' it doesn't make them right.”

So you equate collective concern over a cold blooded murderer and seemingly psychotic violent man, being freely admitted to this country, with the medieval description above? Weird and disturbing.

Quote:
“The Mail's slant really is quite the point though. I would welcome a factual piece that went on to explain to its readers the issues as to why people like Piruz can get through, and then put this one incident in to perspective against the millions of travel movements in and out of the country each year. But that's not what we got, was it?”

erm....yes, it is. The article is well written. Feel free to point out the inaccuracies.

My point was that even just bullet points stating what had happened, minus any explanation, would have been sufficient to spark serious concern.

Quote:
“The evidence is there for everyone to see. It is printed in black and white on the pages of the paper and yet more evidence is presented on the Web site.”

There is no evidence sufficient to conclude that the Mail's readers fit into a certain mould, nor have you even attempted to provide any.

Quote:
“If you want more evidence then have a look in to why Lego pulled its advertising from the Daily Mail.”

One Danish company decides to pull its advertising - quite honestly that's no great loss.

Quote:
“You suggested I have underestimated your intelligence; then you go and make a comment like that. Poor, very poor.”

Correction, I said you had underestimated the intelligence of people generally, deciding what is right and wrong. As far as the remark, it was you who, somewhat inanely, made an association between concern over murderers freely being allowed into the country, and being fed a diet of "hate".
Union Jock
Yesterday, 16:24
Originally Posted by jjwales:
“
Has anyone actually defended him or called anyone racist, or did you make that up?”

The post above yours.


Originally Posted by Chris Frost:
“Add to that that this could just as easily have been a Dutch national. My guess is you're agitated by this because the guy looks a bit "foreign".
.”

GusGus
Yesterday, 17:56
In the title of this thread, and mentioned in other threads is the word "scum"
I feel for our society that people now use such a word to describe their fellow mankind. Farage and his ilk have a lot to answer for, such words had a place in Germany in the 1930s
sorcha_healy27
Yesterday, 18:07
Originally Posted by jjwales:
“What human rights do you want to deny him?


Has anyone actually defended him or called anyone racist, or did you make that up?”

Chris seems to have done all of the above
anne_666
Yesterday, 19:08
Originally Posted by cessna:
“>>>

My point was aimed at the ease of entry into the UK regarding uncontrolled mass immigration with its widely acknowledged dangers of cloaking within its ranks a percentage of terrorists entry. Leaving aside police estimates of some 4000 terrorist sleepers lying low as sleepers in GB, While we have enjoyed a period of being All quiet on the terrorist front for some time does not imply it will always remain so here in GB. Some are of the opinion that our ineffective Govt would do well to study some of the methods used within Australia and the US where standards of supervising entry and exit into their countries are of far higher standards compared to the methods, or lack of standards of security within UK passport control by comparison.”

You said EU rules on freedom of travel not residency.
I think IS need all the people they can get where they're fighting and I don't believe they're shipping active fighters into Europe. Little can stop their European radicalisation campaign and we can only trust our own first class security forces.

The US has a substantial number of illegal immigrants and their rules haven't made them free from terrorism. Nor have Australia's.
Visas far from guarantee criminal free tourism and if terrorists want to get into any country they don't need to do it legally.
mickmars
Yesterday, 20:05
Originally Posted by GusGus:
“In the title of this thread, and mentioned in other threads is the word "scum"
I feel for our society that people now use such a word to describe their fellow mankind. Farage and his ilk have a lot to answer for, such words had a place in Germany in the 1930s”

Lunatic beheads another human being,but you are outraged that some people call him Scum.
Then you sneakily compare Farage to Hitler.
You are part of the problem,and not part of the solution
NeverEnough
Yesterday, 23:36
Originally Posted by mickmars:
“Lunatic beheads another human being,but you are outraged that some people call him Scum.
Then you sneakily compare Farage to Hitler.
You are part of the problem,and not part of the solution”

Just because he is a Taliban inspired beheader of women and an assaulter of policemen with hammers doesn't necessarily mean he is scum.

I mean at least he never vote UKIP by jiminy.
Brandy211
Today, 13:49
Originally Posted by Happ Hazzard:
“We should not be letting anyone in unless they can prove they do not have a criminal record in any country, and anyone even tangentially connected with another country that commits a crime should be deported immediately. No ifs, no buts, no appeals, just out.”

If other countries said the same, that would mean a hell of a lot of Brits and celebs would be unable to travel!

According to records, 9.2 million have a record.
Who knows what that figure is if everyone who has ever been cautioned, arrested, cleared etc are also included as the U.S require that info too.

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