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"Scientists should not resign themselves to Brexit"


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Old Yesterday, 01:22
TheEngineer
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It seems the forces for remain are not going to leave the EU without a fight

http://www.nature.com/news/scientist...brexit-1.21237

With the arrogance expected of a governing class born to power, the British government has tried to buy off academic opposition to Brexit by showering institutions with cash.

But this straightforward manoeuvre — dropping an extra £2 billion (US$2.5 billion) into the nation’s science budget to quieten criticism and shore up a weak political position — shouldn’t fool anyone.

Instead, researchers, together with other groups threatened by Brexit, should fight to keep a foothold in the European Union. The outlook may be discouraging — opposition disarray makes it tough to rally the 48% of voters who opposed Brexit — but there’s still everything to play for.
The £2 billion promised annually to UK scientists by 2020 is subject to an extensive reform of British research funding, which would sub*jugate the research councils and abolish the royal charters of individual universities. This, according to the mandarins at the Treasury — the same ones whose dominance of public policy has steadily stripped Britain of a coherent approach to science, technology and industry since the Second World War — is now the way forward.
The political opportunities look narrow right now. But the loose coalition of dissenters, doubters and right-wing jackals who voted to leave Europe can still be broken up. Chances aplenty will arise as soon as May starts to negotiate a deal that is sure to anger or disappoint many of these voters. The scientific community may be close to despair right now. But it must not take this rout lying down.
My bolding
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Old Yesterday, 02:42
Aneechik
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Switzerland, Norway, Turkey, Iceland, Serbia and Israel have full participation in EU science programs. None are members of the EU.
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Old Yesterday, 02:58
Mr Oleo Strut
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It seems the forces for remain are not going to leave the EU without a fight

http://www.nature.com/news/scientist...brexit-1.21237







My bolding
Yes, the shabby crew of right-wing spivs and carpet-baggers trying to shoehorn Brexit onto the nation and the reluctant 48% are finding it increasingly impossible to do so, thank goodness. They ain't seen nothing yet!
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Old Yesterday, 07:22
Andrew1954
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As a liberal minded scientist who supported Brexit I just love these insults that Remainers think passes for logical argument.
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Old Yesterday, 08:09
Maxatoria
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I wonder when the exit voters will get called paedo's as the remain camp has pretty much used up every other insult etc so they will either have to call them mini Hitlers or nonces to keep it fresh.

This blame everything on brexit is getting boring to say the least, its funny to watch certain people try and turn everything against the will of the voting public but there comes a point where it starts to get silly.
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Old Yesterday, 08:33
Aurora13
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I wonder when the exit voters will get called paedo's as the remain camp has pretty much used up every other insult etc so they will either have to call them mini Hitlers or nonces to keep it fresh.

This blame everything on brexit is getting boring to say the least, its funny to watch certain people try and turn everything against the will of the voting public but there comes a point where it starts to get silly.
When something is the direct result of Brexit it will be called as such. The fact that the public voted for it makes no difference whatsoever. They voted knowingly so crying later that it's nothing to do with their vote isn't going to wash. It's called personal responsibility for our actions.
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Old Yesterday, 10:37
jmclaugh
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I almost thought the OP hadn't done a thread today but TheEngineer is still hard at it desperately looking for any anti-Brexit material even in the early hours of the morning.
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Old Yesterday, 10:42
Alrightmate
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With the arrogance expected of a governing class born to power, the British government has tried to buy off academic opposition to Brexit by showering institutions with cash.

But this straightforward manoeuvre — dropping an extra £2 billion (US$2.5 billion) into the nation’s science budget to quieten criticism and shore up a weak political position — shouldn’t fool anyone.
What?
So effectively they're providing funding for them?

Should scientists be fooled when the EU pay them funding to do their work instead?

Their fear is that they may lose funding if they leave the EU.
We leave the EU and the British government provide them with their funding.
But the response is 'This doesn't fool us'? Like it's a trick or something?
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Old Yesterday, 11:02
Mark_Jones9
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When something is the direct result of Brexit it will be called as such. The fact that the public voted for it makes no difference whatsoever. They voted knowingly so crying later that it's nothing to do with their vote isn't going to wash. It's called personal responsibility for our actions.
So we should call it as such. Some scientists and administrators getting upset over the possibility of losing their EU funding or jobs. As the UK funding while more in money may not be for the research projects they are doing, and the government wants to reduce the number of different administration organisations.

Non EU nations take part in EU science programs so leaving the EU does not mean the UK and EU have to cease science cooperation and research information sharing. And some non EU nations even choose to be full members of EU science contributing funding towards and receive funding from EU science. So the idea Brexit means Brexit from EU science is not necessarily true.
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Old Yesterday, 11:19
LostFool
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What?
So effectively they're providing funding for them?

Should scientists be fooled when the EU pay them funding to do their work instead?

Their fear is that they may lose funding if they leave the EU.
We leave the EU and the British government provide them with their funding.
But the response is 'This doesn't fool us'? Like it's a trick or something?
What guarantee is there of that? I thought all of the "savings" were going to the NHS!

Besides, it's not just about the money. The EU provides only a few percent of science research funding in the UK and the vast majority of that goes into academia. There are other factors which are important such as the collaboration opportunities, freedom of movement, European-wide IP/Patent protection, unified regulations and approvals processes etc. Yes, we could probably sign up to most of these once we leave the EU but would that be "real Br-exit" and keep the Leavers happy?

If you look across all professions, I can't think of many which were more pro-Remain than scientists. I work with hundreds of them and can only think of a handful who I know voted to leave.
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Old Yesterday, 11:26
The_Moth
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Cuts in funding, the reorganisation of the research councils and potential scrapping of the "Haldane Principle" were all well underway long before the EU referendum. Indeed the decision to leave the EU has put a large spanner in the works since the civil service staff working on these issues have had to be redeployed to work on determining the post-EU future. However, Brexit has presented the government with an opportunity to allow some research issues to simply "fall down the cracks" during the chaos.
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Old Yesterday, 11:30
jmclaugh
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There are other factors which are important such as the collaboration opportunities, freedom of movement, European-wide IP/Patent protection, unified regulations and approvals processes etc. Yes, we could probably sign up to most of these once we leave the EU but would that be "real Br-exit" and keep the Leavers happy?
I don't see why not except for FoM but the end of that wouldn't exclude people working here or in the EU. It strikes me it is Remainers who raise such issues with no real evidence to support Brexit will result in what they claim.
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Old Yesterday, 11:46
LostFool
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I don't see why not except for FoM but the end of that wouldn't exclude people working here or in the EU. It strikes me it is Remainers who raise such issues with no real evidence to support Brexit will result in what they claim.
That's the whole point. There is "no real evidence to support Brexit". Just head in the sand blind faith that everything will be OK-ish. Scientists are people who respond to evidence and facts, both which are frighteners absent from the post-truth Leave campaign.
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Old Yesterday, 11:53
jmclaugh
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That's the whole point. There is "no real evidence to support Brexit". Just head in the sand blind faith that everything will be OK-ish. Scientists are people who respond to evidence and facts, both which are frighteners absent from the post-truth Leave campaign.
Yet there is no real evidence or facts to support what these scientists are saying, it is all 'could', 'might' or 'may'.

The evidence for support for Brexit came on the 23 June 2016.
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Old Yesterday, 12:13
MargMck
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As a liberal minded scientist who supported Brexit I just love these insults that Remainers think passes for logical argument.
I wonder when the exit voters will get called paedo's as the remain camp has pretty much used up every other insult etc so they will either have to call them mini Hitlers or nonces to keep it fresh.

This blame everything on brexit is getting boring to say the least, its funny to watch certain people try and turn everything against the will of the voting public but there comes a point where it starts to get silly.
I think we're well past that... imagine them looking through a thesaurus and finding they've run out of nonsensical insults.
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Old Yesterday, 13:21
njp
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As a liberal minded scientist who supported Brexit I just love these insults that Remainers think passes for logical argument.
Why were almost all the leading Brexit campaigners also science deniers? It can't just be a coincidence.
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Old Yesterday, 13:36
Andrew1954
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That's the whole point. There is "no real evidence to support Brexit". Just head in the sand blind faith that everything will be OK-ish. Scientists are people who respond to evidence and facts, both which are frighteners absent from the post-truth Leave campaign.
Well, it will be. I don't know how many times I have to say this but many countries are not in the EU and they get on OK-ish, often very well-ish. And as a scientist I worked with Americans, Canadians, Australians, Japanese, Russians, Koreans, Israelis, Egyptians, Africans, Chileans (and more I've forgotten) on various joint programmes, as immigrants or visiting scientists. Many Europeans too of course. My point is that the EU isn't a necessary prerequisite for collaborative programmes. Lack of FM between ourselves and non-EU countries doesn't stop people coming here to work either, or us going there. Having worked on a few EU programmes I can't see why in principle Britain should not remain part of these, just as various other non-EU countries are.
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Old Yesterday, 13:43
BrokenArrow
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What guarantee is there of that? I thought all of the "savings" were going to the NHS!

Besides, it's not just about the money. The EU provides only a few percent of science research funding in the UK and the vast majority of that goes into academia. There are other factors which are important such as the collaboration opportunities, freedom of movement, European-wide IP/Patent protection, unified regulations and approvals processes etc. Yes, we could probably sign up to most of these once we leave the EU but would that be "real Br-exit" and keep the Leavers happy?

If you look across all professions, I can't think of many which were more pro-Remain than scientists. I work with hundreds of them and can only think of a handful who I know voted to leave.
Approvals and standards is nothing to do with EU membership.

The EU has to comply with British standards if it wants to sell goods here whether we are a member or not and vice versa.
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Old Yesterday, 13:44
Video Nasty
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I wonder when the exit voters will get called paedo's as the remain camp has pretty much used up every other insult etc so they will either have to call them mini Hitlers or nonces to keep it fresh.

This blame everything on brexit is getting boring to say the least, its funny to watch certain people try and turn everything against the will of the voting public but there comes a point where it starts to get silly.
It got silly long ago. These threads only purpose are to get a negative response from certain posters.

It's trolling at this point.
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Old Yesterday, 14:00
LostFool
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Approvals and standards is nothing to do with EU membership.

The EU has to comply with British standards if it wants to sell goods here whether we are a member or not and vice versa.
Which means having a separate British standards and approvals process which just adds delay, costs and complications for everyone.

Take the approvals of new drugs and medical devices. At present the EU/EEA is the second biggest market in the world after the US. There is a single European regulatory framework, run by the EMA (based in London - at least for now), which means that manufacturers can get a single authorisation which applies to all member countries.

If the UK is determined to have its own independent regulatory process (run by who, I'm not sure) then we become our own much smaller market so less of a priority for approval submissions.
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Old Yesterday, 14:10
BrokenArrow
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Which means having a separate British standards and approvals process which just adds delay, costs and complications for everyone.

Take the approvals of new drugs and medical devices. At present the EU/EEA is the second biggest market in the world after the US. There is a single European regulatory framework, run by the EMA (based in London - at least for now), which means that manufacturers can get a single authorisation which applies to all member countries.

If the UK is determined to have its own independent regulatory process (run by who, I'm not sure) then we become our own much smaller market so less of a priority for approval submissions.
There has always been British standards and regulations and always will be.

It has nothing to do with the EU, EU manufacturers will always have to put a British standard 3 pin plug on their appliances if they want to sell here and car manufacturers will have to sell right hand drive cars with MPH on their speedometers.
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Old Yesterday, 15:10
Tuscan Sun
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Only one thread from TheEngineer today? Come on Engine, keep those pistons pumping!
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