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Do you care if there is a guard on the trains? |
| View Poll Results: Do you care if there is a guard on the trains? | |||
| Yes |
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49 | 57.65% |
| No |
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24 | 28.24% |
| Not Bothered |
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12 | 14.12% |
| Voters: 85. You can't vote on this poll right now - are you signed in? | |||
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#1 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wolf359
Posts: 96,648
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Do you care if there is a guard on the trains?
Southern Trains management say they want to introduce driver only trains for the benefit of customers.
But IMO they really want to do it to decrease costs and there is not only no benefit to driver only trains but things are worse without a guard on the train. A driver should concentrate on driving the train and not be distracted by having to open and close doors or worry about trouble in the carriages. While a guard can collect tickets, look out for passengers causing trouble, or for lost or dangerous luggage left and can get off the train at stations to make sure that closing the doors is safe to do. This is so obviously a cost saving measure and nothing to do with the customers. |
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#2 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 10,839
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Quote:
Southern Trains management say they want to introduce driver only trains for the benefit of customers.
But IMO they really want to do it to decrease costs and there is not only no benefit to driver only trains but things are worse without a guard on the train. A driver should concentrate on driving the train and not be distracted by having to open and close doors or worry about trouble in the carriages. While a guard can collect tickets, look out for passengers causing trouble, or for lost or dangerous luggage left and can get off the train at stations to make sure that closing the doors is safe to do. This is so obviously a cost saving measure and nothing to do with the customers. There needs to be a fundamental review of the pay and conditions of the entire rail industry as it makes no sense that ours is so expensive to run. If it's found that people are paid higher than international comparisons (or equivalent jobs in the UK) then there should be a permanent freeze on pay for existing staff and lower rates for new joiners. |
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#3 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: I survived the killzone!
Posts: 18,241
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As I never use the things I could not care one way or the other.
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#4 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wolf359
Posts: 96,648
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Quote:
As I never use the things I could not care one way or the other.
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#5 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wolf359
Posts: 96,648
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Quote:
Good. If those cost savings mean less pressure on ticket prices then surely that's a positive thing.
There needs to be a fundamental review of the pay and conditions of the entire rail industry as it makes no sense that ours is so expensive to run. If it's found that people are paid higher than international comparisons (or equivalent jobs in the UK) then there should be a permanent freeze on pay for existing staff and lower rates for new joiners. |
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#6 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Leafy London
Posts: 20,370
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Commuted out of London on Anglia for donkeys years with driver only operated trains and never had a solitary problem (related to the OMO).
Certainly welcome a train captain to attend to passengers and turf the scrotes with a standard ticket out of First Class, but I couldn't care who closes the doors. And neither does ASLEF. This is a political strike, nothing more. It has to be broken. |
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#7 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 24,722
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Quote:
Southern Trains management say they want to introduce driver only trains for the benefit of customers.
But IMO they really want to do it to decrease costs and there is not only no benefit to driver only trains but things are worse without a guard on the train. A driver should concentrate on driving the train and not be distracted by having to open and close doors or worry about trouble in the carriages. While a guard can collect tickets, look out for passengers causing trouble, or for lost or dangerous luggage left and can get off the train at stations to make sure that closing the doors is safe to do. This is so obviously a cost saving measure and nothing to do with the customers. |
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#8 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Leafy London
Posts: 20,370
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But that's the thing, the money saved won't go to reduce ticket prices it will go towards the share holders and profit.
There has been a guarantee of no redundancies, merely re-deployment. |
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#9 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 59,670
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Quote:
There are many things I don't use, but I still care about worker's rights and that companies don't abuse workers, such as Sports Direct which I have never used and never will.
Actually, in most cases this isn't about reducing staff but redefining roles. You still need someone on board to check tickets and provide custom services but they don't necessarily need to be legally responsible for the doors. |
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#10 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 97,109
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Quote:
Southern Trains management say they want to introduce driver only trains for the benefit of customers.
But IMO they really want to do it to decrease costs and there is not only no benefit to driver only trains but things are worse without a guard on the train. A driver should concentrate on driving the train and not be distracted by having to open and close doors or worry about trouble in the carriages. While a guard can collect tickets, look out for passengers causing trouble, or for lost or dangerous luggage left and can get off the train at stations to make sure that closing the doors is safe to do. This is so obviously a cost saving measure and nothing to do with the customers. When the train stops the driver is not driving and having to put his finger on a button and press it is hardly complicated or dangerous to passengers. He cannot start the train again until he has closed the doors which again is not a dangerous procedure. The guard's job used to be to guard valuables etc. in the guard's van which are non-exisistent now on most trains |
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#11 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: GL51 0EX
Posts: 14,085
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Quote:
Southern Trains management say they want to introduce driver only trains for the benefit of customers.
Quote:
This is so obviously a cost saving measure and nothing to do with the customers.
Actually it puts revenue at risk. The real thing the union is fighting is the fact that when the guards go on strike in future - Southern could still run the trains - just run a higher risk of revenue loss with people travelling without tickets. It's about the power of the guards to disrupt the service being diminished |
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#12 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Devon
Posts: 47,961
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There are lots of trains operating without guards so this focus on Southern Trains doing it seems illogical. I don't see a driver opening and closing the doors while in a station as a distraction or as a safety issue.
There is certainly a cost saving but as to whether that benefits passengers in terms of lower price rises or a better service is ano matter. |
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#13 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wolf359
Posts: 96,648
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Quote:
When the train stops the driver is not driving and having to put his finger on a button and press it is hardly complicated or dangerous to passengers. He cannot start the train again until he has closed the doors which again is not a dangerous procedure. The guard's job used to be to guard valuables etc. in the guard's van which are non-exisistent now on most trains Quote:
“You’ve got to drive this thing: it doesn’t drive itself. A driver has enough to concentrate on without having to worry what’s going on behind him. There have been incidents where drivers have made mistakes when there’s been a ruckus going on in the coach behind them. You’re thinking: what’s going on in there? And before you know it you’ve made a mistake, missed a station or gone past a red
https://www.theguardian.com/business...s-have-to-stay
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#14 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Welwyn Garden City
Posts: 29,544
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There hasn't been a guard on my trainline for years
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#15 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Leafy London
Posts: 20,370
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How many accidents have been caused in the last 30 years because a guard didn't close the doors.Straightforward question, binary answer required. |
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#16 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wolf359
Posts: 96,648
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Quote:
How many accidents have been caused in the last 30 years because a guard didn't close the doors.
Straightforward question, binary answer required. But that's the trouble with statistics. They don't show the true picture anyway. Companies only care about profit, and they'll have driverless trains let alone driver only trains if it means more money for them. |
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#17 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 3,026
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Quote:
I don't know I tried to google how many accidents happened when they were driver only trains vs guarded trains but couldn't find any stats.
But that's the trouble with statistics. They don't show the true picture anyway. Companies only care about profit, and they'll have driverless trains let alone driver only trains if it means more money for them. |
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#18 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 97,109
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Quote:
The DLR has been running driverless trains for many years without any problems.
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#19 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 97,109
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Quote:
When the driver is is in the driver's cab he is not in any contact with passengers who are in passenger coaches and cannot be distracted by their behaviour.If a riot breaks out amongst passengers then all a passenger has to do is press the emergency button. What more could a guard do than that? |
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#20 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,687
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Quote:
The real thing the union is fighting is the fact that when the guards go on strike in future - Southern could still run the trains - just run a higher risk of revenue loss with people travelling without tickets.
It's about the power of the guards to disrupt the service being diminished I understand that earlier this year a board member was quoted as saying that they wanted to "smash" the union and downgrading the role of the guard is just the first step in doing this. Once the trains can be run without guards then irrespective of current "guarantees", the company will be able to further diminish or remove the role altogether without much effective opposition. |
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#21 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,337
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Quote:
Exactlty and there have been no incidents afaik of anyone dying because of it.
Whether they're called 'guards' or 'customer service assistants' I think on mainline train services there should be another member of staff other than the driver, to assist with customer issues etc, keep an eye on anti social behaviour, and be able to help if an incident arose. |
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#22 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 59,670
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Quote:
Companies only care about profit, and they'll have driverless trains let alone driver only trains if it means more money for them.
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#23 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: GL51 0EX
Posts: 14,085
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Quote:
Whether they're called 'guards' or 'customer service assistants' I think on mainline train services there should be another member of staff other than the driver, to assist with customer issues etc, keep an eye on anti social behaviour, and be able to help if an incident arose.
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#24 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 24,058
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Quote:
When the driver is is in the driver's cab he is not in any contact with passengers who are in passenger coaches and cannot be distracted by their behaviour.
If a riot breaks out amongst passengers then all a passenger has to do is press the emergency button. What more could a guard do than that? ASLEF are trying very hard to justify the need for a guard in the same way they did when they wanted two people in the driver's cab of diesel trains when firemen were no longer needed to stoke coal and keep the fires burning when steam trains were no longer used |
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#25 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Devon
Posts: 47,961
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Quote:
I would imagine that the distraction would be far greater for a bus or coach driver than a train driver would who has far more contact with the passengers if they rioted, with the train unlikely to steer off the track or plough into a number of people. Far easier for a bus driver to miss a red light if distracted, with no built in warning of safety device, or run off the road. All this with the bus or coach driver getting far less pay than a train driver.
ASLEF are trying very hard to justify the need for a guard in the same way they did when they wanted two people in the driver's cab of diesel trains when firemen were no longer needed to stoke coal and keep the fires burning when steam trains were no longer used
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