It's worrying when decisions are made because of the politics rather than the effect on the country.

Good post and exactly what I mean by 'Quality of life'.

It's more worrying when decisions get made by the rich to keep themselves richer and the poor poorer.

No I mean Eastern European countries and 3rd world ones,

And both Germany and Ireland have been influenced by the UK.

That is down to UK immigration figures counting anyone coming planing on staying for more than 12 months, including those whose VISA means they will later leave.

Also not EU immigration is not being mentioned because this is about Brexit and not immigration in general.

Of course Brexiters want to control ALL immigration, but Brexit was about controlling EU immigration because of Freedom of Movement.

As far as I know there is no Freedom of Movement from and to Non EU countries.

For instance we can't just go and live in America, Canada or Australia in the same way EU residents can here.

And when will people admit that other EU countries don't treat our citizens as fairly as we do theirs?

How easy is it for us to go and claim benefits and get 'free' housing in most of the other EU countries?

How many disabled people would find it just as easy to live in Romania or any Eastern European country in the EU?

Influenced? Really? I suppose you are like the character in Goodness Gracious Me who instead of thinking everything in the world is Indian you think everything is British?

No I just think that without WW2 Germany would be a very different place.

And the same with Ireland if England hadn't annexed it.

The British Empire has a lot to answer for, but I don't think the other Countries are innocent or would be better places if they were left on their own.

Those things don't happen here so I don't know what you are on about? And if they do that would be the fault of our elected governments not the EU.

They do happen here and it is not about fault it is about it not happening in other EU countries.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ayer-cash.html

Some people might think that about the UK? So that argument is rather hypocritical i'm afraid.

1. No it doesn't. 2. Yes it is about fault. What difference does Brexit have if this was being allowed by British governments?

Outside of Daily Mail Land I mean.

The former colonies of the British Empire would have been much better off if they'd been left alone. Especially Ireland.

There's no overcrowding apart from in certain cities. If you want to live in a rural idyll, there's plenty about. The problem is more a super concentration of jobs and infrastructure. Cutting immigration isn't going to change the fact that jobs are increasingly concentrated in big cities.

Community and common identity are things that still exist, but have changed completely in nature in the past 20 years.

I feel uncomfortable about the idea of instilling "common identity" and Britishness, as your idea of what that common identity is probably very different to mine. One person's idea of "common identity" is another's idea of stifling conformity.

Communities are also now no longer as geographically limited as they once were. We now have globally accessible culture and communication, so it stands to reason that one person's community can be split about the world and incredibly specific. My culture is now not as much defined by my geographic location as it once would have been. This is just a side effect of modernity, and not something we can really go back on unless we resort to North Korean style isolationism.

You make very strong points, Ads. Mrs May's performance as regards immigration when she was Home Secretary was not only pitiful but deliberately made much worse by budget cuts. The woman is an incompetent control-freak who finds herself by chance, and without election, as Prime Minister responsible for the most delicate negotiations for which she is seriously ill-equipped. This heralds a national disaster and if she does red-line FOM the UK will feel real and continuing pain, from which Mrs May and her cronies will of course be exempt - as you say they are rich and will not be affected.

So what happens when the bellowing herd of mindless Brexit supporters suddenly realise that the country they've got back is debt-ridden and bankrupt and that they are being hammered yet again with costs up and jobs down while the indifferent Mrs May and her Patrician cronies swan about in their togas and svelte lederhosen pontificating about sovereignty and independence? It's at that point that real problems hit the streets and society. The country is already split from top to bottom so when things get tough who is going to get the blame? Will gormless Brexiters blame themselves? Are Remainers really expected to accept all this nonsense without protest? You must be joking!

I doubt it. They would have been taken over by France and be and even more religious country than they already are.

Just look at the Countries colonised by France or Spain?

Brexit was pretty much a "stop immigration" vote and those who did so are not particularly bothered about any of the nuances of the situation such as whether immigrants are good or bad for the economy or whether the country will be better or worse off financially (this is the 'post truth' and 'post experts' era after all).

What Farage and UKIP did was extremely clever, turning the referendum into one on immigration.

There might be something about the concept of being left alone that you missed. Just to make it clear for you, I'm not saying British colonialism was evil, I'm saying ALL colonialism is evil, and the countries colonised would have been better off left alone to develop at their own pace and in their own way.

Housing benefit does not exist in almost the whole of Eastern Europe bar a modest scheme in Lithuania I believe. There aren't equivalents to tax credits either.

Why live at home with mum and dad in Slovakia when you can come to the UK and get your rent paid for by the UK government so you can live in London. And we top up their wages too with tax credits and provide free non contributory NHS care - none of which Brits would get in Slovakia on arrival. They can also avoid NI contributions if they return home every six months. They then export all this money back and can use it to buy a house when they go home whee prices are cheaper - so generous of us!

We are mugs.

Don't you just love the way people hear what they want to hear when interpreting the case for Brexit? If you open your ears and mind you will hear that many of those championing Brexit are in favour of a more sensible and intelligent immigration policy than simply FM for EU citizens.

Ideally yes, Japan is the perfect example of how intervention went horribly wrong.

"Out of control immigration" was a brilliant slogan for the Leave side, the idea being that the UK was being "forced" by the EU to accept huge numbers of immigrants every year and the only way it could be halted was to quit the EU.

I believe this is what probably swung the referendum in the end. All facts and figures and 'expert opinions' went out the window and enough people believed they were voting to put a halt to the flood of immigrants coming into the country. Stuff like whether the UK would be better or worse off financially became largely immaterial in this referendum on immigration.

Oh Lord, this is really at the heart of all this.

The chunk of the population so stuck in the past, they prefer to think of the Empire rather than our future.

It was a different time and one which is NOT coming back, no matter how loud you sing Rule Britannia.

Beyond pathetic and utterly depressing.