As mentioned by The Slug, Eileen and Den Watts in the fav. Doctor thread, we should have individual discussion threads about each doctor.
Results:How do you rate William Hartnell as the Doctor?
Very poor
0 (0%)
Poor
1 (0.99%)
Fair
8 (7.92%)
Good
29 (28.71%)
Very good
36 (35.64%)
Fantastic
27 (26.73%)
Voters: 101. You can't vote on this poll right now - are you signed in?
DR WHO-William Hartnell In Depth Discussion
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Originally Posted by bee.fear:
“As mentioned by The Slug, Eileen and Den Watts in the fav. Doctor thread, we should have individual discussion threads about each doctor.”
“As mentioned by The Slug, Eileen and Den Watts in the fav. Doctor thread, we should have individual discussion threads about each doctor.”
Excellent - the original.
(Don't we all feel spoilt by the amount of room in our own forum?)
Anyway - Hartnell, yes. I defy RTD to echo a line uttered by this Doctor, in which he tells a companion that they need a "good smacked bottom."
Especially in this day and age.
He was a fanatstic Doctor - eccentric, brilliant, sometimes harsh but always caring. A hard act to follow. The lack of special effects was more than made up for by his acting ability.
I'd agree with Den.
He was the first and so set the stall for the character in many ways. He had none of the mythology to fall back on that we have today. In some ways this made life easier, but in others less so, especially when we look back from 40 years later (hindsight being a wonderful thing!)
A good start, hmmm?
He was the first and so set the stall for the character in many ways. He had none of the mythology to fall back on that we have today. In some ways this made life easier, but in others less so, especially when we look back from 40 years later (hindsight being a wonderful thing!)
A good start, hmmm?
Whilst agreeing that William Hartnell was the best ever Doctor, having seen The Keys of Marinus and The Dalek Invasion of Earth recently, it's obvious that WH had trouble with his lines, but as he was not a young man and a bit deaf, it's not surprising.
His somewhat irascible character always gave me the impression that he was just looking for a convenient time and place to ditch his incredibly annoying, scream-prone companions and probably his grand-daughter along with them.
Even with their low production values and dreadful special effects, WH's stories had more depth and interest than any which followed, at least until RTD's version.
I remember even as a child being appalled that WH was passed over for Peter Cushing in the film versions. PC was a good actor but his kid's matinee interpretation of DW made me cringe.
His somewhat irascible character always gave me the impression that he was just looking for a convenient time and place to ditch his incredibly annoying, scream-prone companions and probably his grand-daughter along with them.
Even with their low production values and dreadful special effects, WH's stories had more depth and interest than any which followed, at least until RTD's version.
I remember even as a child being appalled that WH was passed over for Peter Cushing in the film versions. PC was a good actor but his kid's matinee interpretation of DW made me cringe.
You have to remember, in those days they didn't have retakes and it was recorded almost live, one episode at a time.
I get my kids' names muddled up and I'm nowhere near as old as Hartnell was! I think he can be forgiven.
I get my kids' names muddled up and I'm nowhere near as old as Hartnell was! I think he can be forgiven.
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib:
“I'd agree with Den.
He was the first and so set the stall for the character in many ways. He had none of the mythology to fall back on that we have today. In some ways this made life easier, but in others less so, especially when we look back from 40 years later (hindsight being a wonderful thing!)
A good start, hmmm?”
“I'd agree with Den.
He was the first and so set the stall for the character in many ways. He had none of the mythology to fall back on that we have today. In some ways this made life easier, but in others less so, especially when we look back from 40 years later (hindsight being a wonderful thing!)
A good start, hmmm?”
Hmmm, hmmm?
It seems we do agree, on some things - fantastic!
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib:
“You have to remember, in those days they didn't have retakes and it was recorded almost live, one episode at a time.
I get my kids' names muddled up and I'm nowhere near as old as Hartnell was! I think he can be forgiven.”
“You have to remember, in those days they didn't have retakes and it was recorded almost live, one episode at a time.
I get my kids' names muddled up and I'm nowhere near as old as Hartnell was! I think he can be forgiven.”
I agree. I'd much rather see WH or Parick Troughton than any of the others.
Jon Pertwee was a bit too slick and luvvie, Tom Baker too hammy and, as for the others, apart from Paul McGann and Chris Eccleston, words fail me.
I'll contribute to this topic properly later (I have a lot to say), but I will point out that with Hartnell and the fluffing of his lines, it was actually part of his character of the first Doctor and not William Hartnell suffering from his age.
Take a look at (or rather, a listen with some telesnaps) "The Massacre", where he plays an Abbot. Completely different (and definitely more coherent) than the way he played the first Doctor. An awesome actor, indeed.
Take a look at (or rather, a listen with some telesnaps) "The Massacre", where he plays an Abbot. Completely different (and definitely more coherent) than the way he played the first Doctor. An awesome actor, indeed.
Jade
I don't think anyone has said so far on this thread that they thought that Hartnell was the best Doctor by the way. We are merely discussing the attributes of each Doctor as this stage.
I don't think anyone has said so far on this thread that they thought that Hartnell was the best Doctor by the way. We are merely discussing the attributes of each Doctor as this stage.
Originally Posted by DenWatts:
“Hmmm, hmmm?
It seems we do agree, on some things - fantastic!”
“Hmmm, hmmm?
It seems we do agree, on some things - fantastic!
”
I'm sure there will be many!
Hey, Jade, what have you got against Peter Davison? (or should we wait until the thread on him?)
Ooh, this is a bit sudden!
When I suggested this series of threads I was hoping the William Hartnell one would start on Saturday, sort of following on from the weekly episode discussions, and that we could have a poll starting then too. I guess now we have our own little playground we're just going to run wild!
I still think a poll is in order (same options as the episodes, maybe with a 'don't know' for those who wish to express an opinion but aren't qualified to do so - like me in this case ). Not sure what the policy is. There are already two on the go. Would a third be too much to handle technically or morally? Should we wait until Saturday - indeed can we wait until then! 
Back to the subject in hand. As you'll have gathered I'm much too young to have experienced WH first hand. My only sightings of him have been oft-repeated snippets from the first episode, and possibly his first (screened) encounter with the Daleks (bless 'em). He knew what they were, didn't he, so presumably he had some history with them even then.
So how can you educate me? Well, for a start tell me how long he played the Doctor, in years and in stories/episodes, remembering I'm too lazy to look that up elsewhere
.
He was the first, and presumably could have been the last - was regeneration spoken of or known about until he decided to leave. Ah! When he left, did he jump or was he pushed?
We need to know more about William Hartnells' acting ability. I believe he was in one or two of the early Carry On films. What else did he do? I assume that he was quite a well known and well respected actor when he took the role. Does anyone know what his personal feelings were about it - before, during, or after?
What was it like to have an 'elderly' Doctor? I can't see that ever happening again, the younger audience wouldn't buy into it would they?
We know the Doctor is 900 or so, but he doesn't act his age very often now - I presume that WH did, but am I wrong?
Was he funny? Or just grumpy? Did he have any 'gadgets'? The sonic screwdriver wasn't around, was it?
Which companions did he have, and what were their personalities. What kind of relationship did they have with him? Was Susan really his grand-daughter?
The monsters! Tell me about the monsters! And the stories! What was his best adventure, and what was the most cringeworthy?
And of course it all boils down to 'why'. Why did you like him? Why didn't you like him? Was he the best? Why?
What was it like between episodes then. Was Doctor Who discussed with friends, with family, with total strangers??!
Was it down to William Hartnell, or the scripts, or some other 'X' factor, that we're still watching, talking about and anticipating Doctor Who episodes all these years later? Why did it work?
When I suggested this series of threads I was hoping the William Hartnell one would start on Saturday, sort of following on from the weekly episode discussions, and that we could have a poll starting then too. I guess now we have our own little playground we're just going to run wild!
I still think a poll is in order (same options as the episodes, maybe with a 'don't know' for those who wish to express an opinion but aren't qualified to do so - like me in this case
). Not sure what the policy is. There are already two on the go. Would a third be too much to handle technically or morally? Should we wait until Saturday - indeed can we wait until then! Back to the subject in hand. As you'll have gathered I'm much too young to have experienced WH first hand. My only sightings of him have been oft-repeated snippets from the first episode, and possibly his first (screened) encounter with the Daleks (bless 'em). He knew what they were, didn't he, so presumably he had some history with them even then.
So how can you educate me? Well, for a start tell me how long he played the Doctor, in years and in stories/episodes, remembering I'm too lazy to look that up elsewhere
.He was the first, and presumably could have been the last - was regeneration spoken of or known about until he decided to leave. Ah! When he left, did he jump or was he pushed?
We need to know more about William Hartnells' acting ability. I believe he was in one or two of the early Carry On films. What else did he do? I assume that he was quite a well known and well respected actor when he took the role. Does anyone know what his personal feelings were about it - before, during, or after?
What was it like to have an 'elderly' Doctor? I can't see that ever happening again, the younger audience wouldn't buy into it would they?
We know the Doctor is 900 or so, but he doesn't act his age very often now - I presume that WH did, but am I wrong?Was he funny? Or just grumpy? Did he have any 'gadgets'? The sonic screwdriver wasn't around, was it?
Which companions did he have, and what were their personalities. What kind of relationship did they have with him? Was Susan really his grand-daughter?
The monsters! Tell me about the monsters! And the stories! What was his best adventure, and what was the most cringeworthy?
And of course it all boils down to 'why'. Why did you like him? Why didn't you like him? Was he the best? Why?
What was it like between episodes then. Was Doctor Who discussed with friends, with family, with total strangers??!
Was it down to William Hartnell, or the scripts, or some other 'X' factor, that we're still watching, talking about and anticipating Doctor Who episodes all these years later? Why did it work?
WH did indeed play the sergeant in Carry on Sergeant but usulally he seemed to play shifty smal time crooks and suchlike.
His time as DW included many of the historical tales: Aztecs, Romans, Cowboys, Cavemen, Ghenghis Khan etc. which more or less vanished after Patrick Troughton left.
There was very little sf in WHs historical episodes, they usually semed to deal with political intrigue or espionage.
My memories of the monsters from his era, apart from the Daleks include some of the more oddball ones: Menoptera, Zarbi, Voords, Mechanoids and Sensorites. I also remember Michael Gough as the Celestial Toymaker which, like so many other stories, has been lost.
His time as DW included many of the historical tales: Aztecs, Romans, Cowboys, Cavemen, Ghenghis Khan etc. which more or less vanished after Patrick Troughton left.
There was very little sf in WHs historical episodes, they usually semed to deal with political intrigue or espionage.
My memories of the monsters from his era, apart from the Daleks include some of the more oddball ones: Menoptera, Zarbi, Voords, Mechanoids and Sensorites. I also remember Michael Gough as the Celestial Toymaker which, like so many other stories, has been lost.
Originally Posted by ironjade:
“WH did indeed play the sergeant in Carry on Sergeant but usulally he seemed to play shifty smal time crooks and suchlike.
His time as DW included many of the historical tales: Aztecs, Romans, Cowboys, Cavemen, Ghenghis Khan etc. which more or less vanished after Patrick Troughton left.
There was very little sf in WHs historical episodes, they usually semed to deal with political intrigue or espionage.
My memories of the monsters from his era, apart from the Daleks include some of the more oddball ones: Menoptera, Zarbi, Voords, Mechanoids and Sensorites. I also remember Michael Gough as the Celestial Toymaker which, like so many other stories, has been lost.”
“WH did indeed play the sergeant in Carry on Sergeant but usulally he seemed to play shifty smal time crooks and suchlike.
His time as DW included many of the historical tales: Aztecs, Romans, Cowboys, Cavemen, Ghenghis Khan etc. which more or less vanished after Patrick Troughton left.
There was very little sf in WHs historical episodes, they usually semed to deal with political intrigue or espionage.
My memories of the monsters from his era, apart from the Daleks include some of the more oddball ones: Menoptera, Zarbi, Voords, Mechanoids and Sensorites. I also remember Michael Gough as the Celestial Toymaker which, like so many other stories, has been lost.
”
One question I've always wanted answered but never heard posed to Biddy Baxter or any of the BBC bods from the time in interview, is given the remit of DW, what on earth made them think that they could actually achieve such a series given the production restrictions they were under?
If you take "The Chase" which I watched recently, it may drag a bit for a six-parter but you can't fault it for sheer ambition of storytelling given how they worked. I love WH in it and doff my cap to him as the Grandfather of the Whos but can't say I've ever really connected with him in any of the stories...although oddly enough, visualising him while reading the novels I've really loved his character...is that odd?
Lovely to find a thread that's actually still doing what it says btw...most refreshing
Originally Posted by JohnFlawbod:
“One question I've always wanted answered but never heard posed to Biddy Baxter or any of the BBC bods from the time in interview, is given the remit of DW, what on earth made them think that they could actually achieve such a series given the production restrictions they were under?
If you take "The Chase" which I watched recently, it may drag a bit for a six-parter but you can't fault it for sheer ambition of storytelling given how they worked. I love WH in it and doff my cap to him as the Grandfather of the Whos but can't say I've ever really connected with him in any of the stories...although oddly enough, visualising him while reading the novels I've really loved his character...is that odd?
Lovely to find a thread that's actually still doing what it says btw...most refreshing”
“One question I've always wanted answered but never heard posed to Biddy Baxter or any of the BBC bods from the time in interview, is given the remit of DW, what on earth made them think that they could actually achieve such a series given the production restrictions they were under?
If you take "The Chase" which I watched recently, it may drag a bit for a six-parter but you can't fault it for sheer ambition of storytelling given how they worked. I love WH in it and doff my cap to him as the Grandfather of the Whos but can't say I've ever really connected with him in any of the stories...although oddly enough, visualising him while reading the novels I've really loved his character...is that odd?
Lovely to find a thread that's actually still doing what it says btw...most refreshing
”
I don't think the restrictions imposed on DW were any different from most tv drama of the time.
Much of it looked just as cheap and crappy as DW.
Z Cars attempted to be realistic but the ropey sets and switching back and forth from film to video made it very hard to watch.
Most tv drama suffers from being studio bound and overlit. This is the reason US shows were popular at the time and still are: those we saw were produced on film and looked so much better than our video based shows. Mercifully we were spared US video soaps which are even worse than ours. People think Dallas and Dynasty etc. are soap operas; they're not. Most people in the UK have never seen a real soap and if they're lucky they never will.
Sorry for rambling but it's a fact that production techniques do influence the look and content of tv shows and this makes them date very quickly in many cases.
The reason most of Gerry Anderson's shows are still around is because he had the foresight to shoot them on film for the US market (thus also avoiding standards conversion problems).
This also applies to ITC stuff like Saint, Department S, Randall & Hopkirk etc.
On video everything looks like Coronation St.
Originally Posted by ironjade:
“I don't think the restrictions imposed on DW were any different from most tv drama of the time.”
“I don't think the restrictions imposed on DW were any different from most tv drama of the time.”
Sorry, you misunderstood me - I meant commissioning a show that would involve Marco Polo, Genghis Khan, Daleks the OK Corale...knowing the restrictions was highly ambitious and commendable...Z Cars was just a city cop show no matter how "ground breaking" it turned out to be.
(most people have seen a US soap now since "Santa Barbra was first screened on ITV in the 80s btw)
Originally Posted by JohnFlawbod:
“Sorry, you misunderstood me - I meant commissioning a show that would involve Marco Polo, Genghis Khan, Daleks the OK Corale...knowing the restrictions was highly ambitious and commendable...Z Cars was just a city cop show no matter how "ground breaking" it turned out to be.
(most people have seen a US soap now since "Santa Barbra was first screened on ITV in the 80s btw)”
“Sorry, you misunderstood me - I meant commissioning a show that would involve Marco Polo, Genghis Khan, Daleks the OK Corale...knowing the restrictions was highly ambitious and commendable...Z Cars was just a city cop show no matter how "ground breaking" it turned out to be.
(most people have seen a US soap now since "Santa Barbra was first screened on ITV in the 80s btw)”
Sorry, I'm with you now. I think the original idea of DW was that it should be educational as well as entertaining ,so attempting all those historical tales makes sense. Probably no one really liked them (I know I didn't) so they were gradually phased out. All other tales with a historical background usually featured monsters etc. from then onwards.
I agree with you about The Chase: it is ambitious although its reach rather exceeds its grasp, but hey, it's got Mechanoids in it, for which much can be forgiven
I was one of the lucky ones allowed to see episode 1 in 1963 as an 8 year old - have stayed with it since.
Although in those days we watched on 405 line black and white sets (with car interference causing lines!), we are spoilt now with DVD releases looking better than I can remember them. The Vidfire process used on later DVD releases is astonishing - the Daleks 2nd outing (Invasion Earth or summat) looks lovely now.
I was always slightly in awe of WH - he often snapped at his assistants and could be cold/threatening. In the Tenth Planet, I wet myself when the cloth faced Cybermen first made an appearance. Over the years they have been updated - and are not as frightening now but I welcome their return in NextGen series 2.
Rather like the new advert for Virgin Trains (using old film clips inserted into modern trains) it would be great to see an homage to WH - using some wizardry to put Bill Hartnell into a new story - maybe the Cyberman one!
H
PS - this thread could be a meeting place for old gits in their 50's stating "it's not like the show when I were a kid..."
Although in those days we watched on 405 line black and white sets (with car interference causing lines!), we are spoilt now with DVD releases looking better than I can remember them. The Vidfire process used on later DVD releases is astonishing - the Daleks 2nd outing (Invasion Earth or summat) looks lovely now.
I was always slightly in awe of WH - he often snapped at his assistants and could be cold/threatening. In the Tenth Planet, I wet myself when the cloth faced Cybermen first made an appearance. Over the years they have been updated - and are not as frightening now but I welcome their return in NextGen series 2.
Rather like the new advert for Virgin Trains (using old film clips inserted into modern trains) it would be great to see an homage to WH - using some wizardry to put Bill Hartnell into a new story - maybe the Cyberman one!
H
PS - this thread could be a meeting place for old gits in their 50's stating "it's not like the show when I were a kid..."
Originally Posted by The Slug:
“.......... possibly his first (screened) encounter with the Daleks (bless 'em). He knew what they were, didn't he, so presumably he had some history with them even then.”
“.......... possibly his first (screened) encounter with the Daleks (bless 'em). He knew what they were, didn't he, so presumably he had some history with them even then.”
Actually, having seen this story again in the last few years, he didnt know about them, as I remember, he deliberately damaged a part of the tardis so he could go and investigate the large citadel. When they got there, the daleks were as much a surprise to him as they were to us.
It is interesting to note how the daleks have evolved over time, when we first met them, they could only travel on special metal roads.
Of course later on under Pat Troughton, they could move over sand .... unfortunately leaving footsteps behind them !
I'm not a huge William Hartnell fan but I do like him. I have seen only a few episodes from his era and although he is great in his wits for me I just can't get used to an older Doctor. I think it's more to do with the fact that when I was growing up I was watching Pertwee and Tom Baker (repeats on BBC2 you have to understand as I'm far too young to have seen it all the first time round. I was born just as old man McCoy was starting!). Besides that I can totally respect his place in the mythology of Doctor Who and can therefore enjoy his episodes. I like the way he's snappy and short tempered though. It makes it more interesting as to why they stay with him. hehe. And excuse me but his voice!!! That deserves a thread of his own....I'm not going to though but it does. lol. The way he says 'hmmmm?' after just about anything he says to people is fantastic. He's worth watching just for his voice. So I think that old Bill Hartnell is good as the Doctor but I wouldn't rank him up there at the top. Although I don't know if my opinion counts as I wasn't born when he went out but hey ho, there it is.
By the way superb idea to give a thread to each Doctor as it's great to read. I look forward to more
By the way superb idea to give a thread to each Doctor as it's great to read. I look forward to more
Originally Posted by DJ Basaran:
“I'll contribute to this topic properly later (I have a lot to say), but I will point out that with Hartnell and the fluffing of his lines, it was actually part of his character of the first Doctor and not William Hartnell suffering from his age.
”
“I'll contribute to this topic properly later (I have a lot to say), but I will point out that with Hartnell and the fluffing of his lines, it was actually part of his character of the first Doctor and not William Hartnell suffering from his age.
”
Not from the scripts I've seen, which don't include the following fluffs (of those I remember):
"Two cinders floating around in Spain" ("Space")
"If you'd had your shoes on, my boy, you could have given her hers" ("yours")
"Take him back to Kendall. Take him back to Kembel."
"But I'm not a mountain goat and I prefer walking to any day..." ("prefer walking to climbing")
"Anti-radiation gloves...er, drugs"
What *was* Hartnell was the "Checkerton", "Chesterman" and "Chesterfield" type asides.
S.
as mentioned by someone else above, DW was concieved with an educational remit, and i believe that Hartnell was cast because of a perception of him as a "retired school teacher" type.. i have not seen many WH "action" episodes other than The Chase, but i have seen a lot of missing stories from which the audio survived, being played out over stills from the programme.. what i admire about hartnell's doctor is his emphasis on solving problems logically, and with a great attention to detail.
as an aside, hartnell's influence on the programme lasted long after his demise; well into the 1980s nicola bryant was cast as assistant peri brown having been spotted by the husband of hartnell's grand-daughter!
as an aside, hartnell's influence on the programme lasted long after his demise; well into the 1980s nicola bryant was cast as assistant peri brown having been spotted by the husband of hartnell's grand-daughter!
These have been posted before, but here are links to the original proposal for Doctor Who.
Page 1:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/doctorwho/...approach1.html
Page 2:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/doctorwho/...approach2.html
Page 3:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/doctorwho/...approach3.html
Oh - and I loved the "mountain goat" line - not for the fluffs, but for the sheer haughty tone of the Doctor's voice.
Page 1:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/doctorwho/...approach1.html
Page 2:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/doctorwho/...approach2.html
Page 3:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/doctorwho/...approach3.html
Oh - and I loved the "mountain goat" line - not for the fluffs, but for the sheer haughty tone of the Doctor's voice.
Could anyone with the appropriate experience recommend a 1st Doctor story on VHS or DVD, one which best demonstrates Hartnell's finer qualities?
Originally Posted by The Slug:
“Could anyone with the appropriate experience recommend a 1st Doctor story on VHS or DVD, one which best demonstrates Hartnell's finer qualities?”
“Could anyone with the appropriate experience recommend a 1st Doctor story on VHS or DVD, one which best demonstrates Hartnell's finer qualities?”
The Chase, Dalek Invasion of Earth, Keys of Marinus.
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