The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously.
Hubert Humphrey

I blame John Lennon and the Beatles for my attitudes.
Any kind of love is better than any kind of hate.

Nicely put Onion!

If two women on screen kiss each other good bye no one bats an eyelid also neither do they bat an eyelid when it happens in life I know as I always kissed my girl friends goodbye yet when a man does it all hell is let loose by a lot of foolish people. a kiss goodbye is exactly that and the way it was portrayed on DW was correctly and cleverly done as he kissed each one the same nothing more just a kiss of goodbye and thanks. And for all those who don't know john barrowman is scottish and brought up in America as a young boy. and the Doctor is assexual.

sez Who......

Thanks Gossip Junkie, I was waiting for someone to mention about the Doctor.

This wasn't a man to man kiss. The Doctor is an alien, how do we know he even has a penis?

If the Doctor kissed one of the Slitheen, (in their rubber suits - always better to play safe ) would there have been a thread about it? No, its only because the Doctor looks like a man that there are a minority that want to cause a fuss (OK, a minority with a very loud voice)

I never said I disliked homosexuality,my main "thrust" was that if I decided to make anything like a negative comment about it,the protectors would be out in force with their usual "homophobia" "I hate straight sex" spiel,and how right I was.
Personally,I could not care less what anyone says about my colour,my religion,my hair colour etc.I believe in free speech and everyone is entitled to their opinion.Whether I find it offensive is irrelevant.
I would perfer to hear the most offensive opinions in the world than gag anyone which is what you lot want to do to anyone who disagrees with your lifestyle

You're a **** phelings. (Just my opinion)

This is a joke, right? Please say it's a joke.

Aside from the sexual act reference which was unfortunate, I'm not sure that I understand your objections. The thread is entitled Doctor Who and homophobia and is surely as valid a discussion issue as "What is your favourite kind of dalek?" given that a) the new series does include an examination of sexuality and b) that examination has caused a certain amount of negative response from viewers as you will know if you read the post TDD discussion thread some weeks ago.

I don't believe the moderators are here to censor but to ensure that threads remain within the guidelines of the forum and thus far, I think this one has.

It is interesting that just because an alien looks like a man or woman in science fiction we automatically attribute male and female human qualities to it even when we are specifically told that these are not the case. Star Trek did a highly effective episode on this subject involving a simbiant with a male host that died and was replaced by a female host having already fallen in love with a human woman...was it Beverley? My old mind is not what it was...anyway, the resultant confusion in the human side of this relationship was extremely well portrayed. It would be nice to believe that RTD's journey for Rose to seeing a better life through her time with the Doctor can encompass all manner of human ills and negativity.

You mistake a desire to complain, worry, take offence at and indeed feel upset at certain views as a desire to "gag" them phelings.

Your avowed intention was to upset people and that you achieved admirably well which as an aspiration, especially one acted upon in the name of free speech, is quite sad. I'd have preferred someone who believed the things they were saying rather than someone who was simply saying things in order to get a reaction.

I like the sound of that. I think people should be able to post opinions even if others dont agree because it can all be balanced out if the board is any good.

On on the subject I'm not arsed

You've hit the nail on the head there.

YOU may not care if anyone comments on your lifestyle, telling you to change, that you are a disgust, or that you should be put to death because of something they read in a 2000 year old piece of fiction.

But, the majority of other people DO get upset when things are said to them.

I put my hands up, when I'm out with my boyfriend of three years, innocently having a nice evening out, only to have verbal abuse screamed at us (from a distance of course), I get angry, upset, hurt that a perfectly good night out has been ruined by yet another ignoramus.

THATS what all these 'overly PC' new ideas are about. They are new laws to try and instill some sort of decency in bigots who are basically ignorant and scared of what they don't understand. Most of whom hide behind a God (I'm not dissing any religion here, just the people that use it, as and when, for their own convenient ends.)

It's not being overly PC, it's not being namby pamby. By actually caring about hurting someone elses feelings you show you have progressed from the Neanderthals of yesteryear.

Just because someone has an extremely offensive opinion, does not give them the right to tell you. Constantly.

I seem to spend a great deal of time and energy being 'thoughtful' and understanding of all the bigotry and intolerance around me, just telling myself 'it's just an opinion, they have a right to it'.

When all I want to say is 'NO you are WRONG, you are living in the past, we are moving forward, get used to it.'

As a little reference:

Most other species on this planet have gay population. It's nature, not nurture, or do frogs have a Section 28 to prevent promotion of homosexuality?

In the same part of the bible that allegedly condemns gay people, it also says women should eat an animal when on their period. Do we constantly condemn women for not munching on the nearest cow when they're on their period?

What we are talking about isnt comments like Oh Look A red haired ****, a catholic pillock,a white moron, we are talking about full blown incitement to murder. How would you like to hear constant plays of songs where the lyrics literally encourage people to murder you, beat you etc.
You do not seem to understand that this is not name calling, people DIE because bigots think its ok to preach this stuff.
Thats not being melodramatic, people die , here (westminster bridge-this year kicked to death, America , tortured, dragged by a truck, hung on a fence to DIE.
You think its ok to encourage that?

If you want to dislike my lifestyle thats fine, i probably dont like yours, but i dont want to kill you for it, or encourage others to kill you, or to think its ok for others to want to do the same to you

Well said.

I've had enough of these idiotic bigots. I think it's time for just a little less understanding and a little more challenging.

My parents, Christian, caring, pensioners, who live in a small farming community have fully accepted and embraced the reality of my life, not some bland Utopia where everyone and everything is the same, and see how happy I am with my boyfriend.

thanks for the support

It never ceases to amaze me how little people (even enlightened ones) actually realise about this issue.
On the surface everything may seem all equall, but in so many areas we are discriminated against, papers like the mail in particular take delight in hounding us, saying how dreadfull it is that we may get pension rights, that the law is changing and we will cheat the taxman out of thousands of pounds becuase when i die my house will go to my partner without inheritance tax lability. Our house, that we have both paid for over many years. Rights unmarried hetros couples have had for decades.

To be honest i was expexting more fuss about the kiss. Especially in the press i thought the daily mail would at least had a front page rant. I agree with a previous post saying people should get a life It was a 2 second kiss not a full on orgy between The Doctor,Rose & CJ.

No worries. All the negative stuff that is going on right now is just the predictable backlash from all the 'extra rights' (such as the right to visit your partner in hospital when they are dying) that gay people are finally getting.

It was bound to happen, the ignorant are scared. Scared that gay people are 'taking over the world'. Fear of the unknown creates all types of prejudice. If only they stopped believing the media and realised that gay people have ALWAYS been here, and are simply just asking for simple human rights. Nothing special at all.

The Mail (for those who don't realise, is the most negative, prejudice pandering paper in the UK, who are now taking over from the Sun, what does that tell you?) are just pathetic people pleasers..

On the day I came out to my parents, obviously a pretty difficult day as it was, there was a 'cut out coupon' in the daily Mail for people to fill in their objection to Section 28 being repealed and the 'promotion of homosexuality'. My mum opened the paper and was devastated. She said 'how am I meant to be happy now with things like this going on in the world.?'

This is a newspaper that is meant to be in one of the most progressive countries in the world.

That was only 4 years ago.

Oh, and for those who thing gay marriage is the end of the world. Look at Denmark, where it has been legal for 10 years.

Denmark is statistically the safest place in the world.

Divorce rates amongst gay couples is very, very low indeed. Far lower than the world average in-fact.

Do any of these people that object to gay men and women look at the Middle East, and are horrified at the persecution of women and the fact they are made the dress a certain way and are treated like dirt?

I wonder if in a few years time we will be thinking the same about gay people?

Sorry I cut so much out of your post, jon, you made some good points, but I always hate scrolling through massive quotes to see the next post

To be honest, I think there'll still be a lot of bigots about in 10, 20, maybe 50 year's time. I know a lot of young, supposedly forward thinking people who still have a problem with gay/lesbian/bisexual individuals and relationships. This attitude will then pass to their children and grandchildren, regardless of of whether they know they're passing on their prejudices or not. I myself have never objected to anyone else's lifestyle, providing it doesn't directly hurt anyone else. Why on earth should I be bothered with what a stranger does in bed (or anywhere else they like, for that matter )? And also, does the way someone demonstrates their desire for someone else really constitute their entire personality?

However, I am often shocked when people I otherwise get on really well with express the opinion that sex between two men is wrong (it's usually male/male relationships that people object to, although I totally fail to see why). I have consequently lost a lot of respect for these people, simply because they think something is wrong if they don't do it themselves. So what all this rambling is saying is that most prejudice in ingrained, and is tranferred from one generation to the next almost without being noticed. Though I do think that things are gradually getting better, I don't think we're near the point of eradication of prejudice just yet

Typical response from someone too moronic to actually be intelligent enough to support their point of view with a reasoned argument.
The comment says more about you than it does me

Unfortunately there are many idiots who would abuse you in public and I don't blame you for getting upset.I certainly would never make comments designed to upset someone face to face as there's simply no need.
But on this forum you should be big enough to take it and understand its nothing personal,simply an opinion ,and no matter what you say there are many many people who believe in those opinions but are too worried about negative feedback from anyone.Dishing it out in public is simply impolite and unnecessary,but this is a forum,a place where arguments can be thrown back and forth that simply would not be possible in a face to face situation.
This should be a place where opposing beliefs can be reasoned without the worry of abuse similar to the idiot who called me a ****.

taking the topic back to DW, look how much the public opinion of gay people has changed in the last twenty years. you could even argue in as little as the last five years our society has become a lot more enlightened.

So, i would certainly like to hope that all these prejudices would be long gone in several thousand years, whenever CJ is from. Yes, the character is supposedly bisexual, but i hardly think he would be making a pass at the doctor as they were both facing death at the hands of the daleks. its not exactly romantically timed. When he comes from nobody would think twice if they saw two men expressing their mutual respect in such a manner.

and as for the doc, he's a time lord, not a gay lord

Did they really have a choice?
Yes,shun you or put up with it.Some choice.
If my son turned out gay I would never shun him-its his choice,however that does not mean I have to rave on about great being gay is.
Just because your parents don't speak out against being gay does not mean they agree with it-they have accepted it,thats all

You said that you would prefer to hear the most offensive comments, so I was granting your wish.

It's called humour... it seems that you are lacking this as well as compassion...

The more you feed the "troll" the more it will come back to be fed. There are some people who are beyond reasoning with and who are beyond help.