I am a caucasian female and I love Science.
Science is not a thug, but he is a victim of Derek and Craig's lying, jealous camp ravings.
Science is not a thug, but he is a victim of Derek and Craig's lying, jealous camp ravings.
Perceptions of Caribbean British men and Science
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Originally Posted by celticpolyglot:
“
How utterly appauling to bring race into it. you are a complete rat.”
“
How utterly appauling to bring race into it. you are a complete rat.”
Easy tiger... If you hadn't noticed the thread is about race! And who are you to tell the poster who his friends are?
Originally Posted by celticpolyglot:
“What a load of crapola: anyone can come on here and say stuff like that to make their point seem more valid.
Like, "i have a friend who, like Derek, resembles a black version of Hannibal Lector, and he hates Derek!...Therefore he is a bad man becuase one of his own dislikes him"
How utterly appauling to bring race into it. you are a complete rat.”
“What a load of crapola: anyone can come on here and say stuff like that to make their point seem more valid.
Like, "i have a friend who, like Derek, resembles a black version of Hannibal Lector, and he hates Derek!...Therefore he is a bad man becuase one of his own dislikes him"
How utterly appauling to bring race into it. you are a complete rat.”
If you cared to look at what the creator of the thread was asking. They wanted to know whether someone's race or area they were brought up affected their perceptions of Science, so before you start throwing insults read the subject of this thread more carefully.
Originally Posted by redwolfie:
“Easy tiger... If you hadn't noticed the thread is about race! And who are you to tell the poster who his friends are?”
“Easy tiger... If you hadn't noticed the thread is about race! And who are you to tell the poster who his friends are?
”
Thank you
Originally Posted by redwolfie:
“I'm this one- I live in East London and my friends and family are mixed.
I don't like Science.
Do you mind if I ask you to answer your own question hatboy? That seems fair.”
“I'm this one- I live in East London and my friends and family are mixed.
I don't like Science.
Do you mind if I ask you to answer your own question hatboy? That seems fair.”
Similar. Brixton. White. Mix of close friends/relationships.
Thanks everyone for replying. It's a complicated subject and of course racism has many aspects and levels - conscious and unconscious.
What I've noticed is the people are often very quick to anger about talking overtly about race. It's as if the liberal way is to pretend it isn't there. In an ideal society superficial differences would be insignificant, but we don't live in that society as yet.
I think that, if you are someone who cares alot about racism, the journey towards being really free of it begins where many white people (speaking as a white person myself) believe they've already done it.
You could also say the same about the subtleties of homophobia.
Unfortunately I suspect the perception of Science across the country will mean he couldn't win.
I agree Science goes on a bit. But I don't mind. don't find it an unbearable manner that I couldn't deal with and above all else, think he has a good heart and good morals.
Derek manipulates and deceives. But perhaps people in general may find him the sort of black man who is more palatable because he is "well-spoken" etc.
And some of that perception may be something they are unaware they are doing.
Not saying I'm free of preconceptions, but I think it's an interesting subject. I agree with the person who says that this is very much about class also.
I don't see him as a thug. Maxwell is a thug, talking about the birds and the booze, and making sly racist comments that he would never make in the street.
He does go on a bit which I put down to immaturity, and his way of defending himself against some of the nasty abuse he has taken. But we are not all perfect; he has some lovely points, and a good heart.
I don't see any cultural differences that would hamper Science's ability to mix with the others. You have to remember, most of these housemates are incredibly weird.
Science does not gossip, nor is he an exhibitionist; he is therefore the odd person out from the group.
He does go on a bit which I put down to immaturity, and his way of defending himself against some of the nasty abuse he has taken. But we are not all perfect; he has some lovely points, and a good heart.
I don't see any cultural differences that would hamper Science's ability to mix with the others. You have to remember, most of these housemates are incredibly weird.
Science does not gossip, nor is he an exhibitionist; he is therefore the odd person out from the group.
Originally Posted by hatboy:
“In relation to how people in the house and some critics of Science outside see him as "too much", "too loud", "aggressive", "too full on" and so on:
I'm interested in how much of this is to do with culture, class and race and the prejudices (or at least misunderstandings) that can throw up.
Who on here, who dislikes Science, is either British Caribbean themselves, or other non-white and lives in an urban mixed area?
And who isn't?
Or white in a mixed area with a racial/cultural mix amongst close friends or family? (And don't count just being nice to Winston in the corner shop!).
And who isn't?
Without making a massive argument about it, would people consider saying something on this?
I feel some people let a manner that may be unfamiliar to them cloud the issue of the merit of Science's overall character and morals...”
“In relation to how people in the house and some critics of Science outside see him as "too much", "too loud", "aggressive", "too full on" and so on:
I'm interested in how much of this is to do with culture, class and race and the prejudices (or at least misunderstandings) that can throw up.
Who on here, who dislikes Science, is either British Caribbean themselves, or other non-white and lives in an urban mixed area?
And who isn't?
Or white in a mixed area with a racial/cultural mix amongst close friends or family? (And don't count just being nice to Winston in the corner shop!).
And who isn't?
Without making a massive argument about it, would people consider saying something on this?
I feel some people let a manner that may be unfamiliar to them cloud the issue of the merit of Science's overall character and morals...”
it doesn't matter what people say about themselves, if it doesn't fit another forum member's view, you'll be deemed a liar.
I come from a very mixed area in Manchester and have had black and Asian friends all my life and have also done voluntary work in this community. I still don't particularly like Science and find him both overly and unnecessarily loud.
Thanks again for everyone who contributed to this. Whatver the reasons, its still a pity that many people seems to put trivial characteristics or behaviour above deep-down good character and good morals. I feel this happened with Science. And also TV shows like this aren't run morally or fairly anyway.
I'm white from Bradford, Science reminds me of a lot of the mates I grew up with.
He used a bit of patois - shouted, like we all used to - but he was damn witty also.
I rarely percieved him as being aggressive, he may have been loud & persistent at times, but the body language didn't say 'fight' to me - apart from a couple of occasions when I wondered.
The only real fight like squaring up I saw was from Maxwell, the bin incident, but I may have been mistaken.
He used a bit of patois - shouted, like we all used to - but he was damn witty also.
I rarely percieved him as being aggressive, he may have been loud & persistent at times, but the body language didn't say 'fight' to me - apart from a couple of occasions when I wondered.
The only real fight like squaring up I saw was from Maxwell, the bin incident, but I may have been mistaken.
Originally Posted by hatboy:
“In relation to how people in the house and some critics of Science outside see him as "too much", "too loud", "aggressive", "too full on" and so on:
I'm interested in how much of this is to do with culture, class and race and the prejudices (or at least misunderstandings) that can throw up.
Who on here, who dislikes Science, is either British Caribbean themselves, or other non-white and lives in an urban mixed area?
And who isn't?
Or white in a mixed area with a racial/cultural mix amongst close friends or family? (And don't count just being nice to Winston in the corner shop!).
And who isn't?
Without making a massive argument about it, would people consider saying something on this?
I feel some people let a manner that may be unfamiliar to them cloud the issue of the merit of Science's overall character and morals...”
“In relation to how people in the house and some critics of Science outside see him as "too much", "too loud", "aggressive", "too full on" and so on:
I'm interested in how much of this is to do with culture, class and race and the prejudices (or at least misunderstandings) that can throw up.
Who on here, who dislikes Science, is either British Caribbean themselves, or other non-white and lives in an urban mixed area?
And who isn't?
Or white in a mixed area with a racial/cultural mix amongst close friends or family? (And don't count just being nice to Winston in the corner shop!).
And who isn't?
Without making a massive argument about it, would people consider saying something on this?
I feel some people let a manner that may be unfamiliar to them cloud the issue of the merit of Science's overall character and morals...”
Why can't you just accept that people disagree with you and don't like him?
I haven't said I don't accept difference of opinion. I just like to look deeper.
And I also think the answers are often in the areas people feel least comfortable questioning.
Why don't you read the whole thread.
And I also think the answers are often in the areas people feel least comfortable questioning.
Why don't you read the whole thread.
Originally Posted by hatboy:
“In relation to how people in the house and some critics of Science outside see him as "too much", "too loud", "aggressive", "too full on" and so on:
I'm interested in how much of this is to do with culture, class and race and the prejudices (or at least misunderstandings) that can throw up.
Who on here, who dislikes Science, is either British Caribbean themselves, or other non-white and lives in an urban mixed area?
And who isn't?
Or white in a mixed area with a racial/cultural mix amongst close friends or family? (And don't count just being nice to Winston in the corner shop!).
And who isn't?
Without making a massive argument about it, would people consider saying something on this?
I feel some people let a manner that may be unfamiliar to them cloud the issue of the merit of Science's overall character and morals...”
“In relation to how people in the house and some critics of Science outside see him as "too much", "too loud", "aggressive", "too full on" and so on:
I'm interested in how much of this is to do with culture, class and race and the prejudices (or at least misunderstandings) that can throw up.
Who on here, who dislikes Science, is either British Caribbean themselves, or other non-white and lives in an urban mixed area?
And who isn't?
Or white in a mixed area with a racial/cultural mix amongst close friends or family? (And don't count just being nice to Winston in the corner shop!).
And who isn't?
Without making a massive argument about it, would people consider saying something on this?
I feel some people let a manner that may be unfamiliar to them cloud the issue of the merit of Science's overall character and morals...”
I think you make some very good points. But we could say similar things about 'chavs' or 'white trash'. I think in many ways Science is just a black version of Maxwell.
Originally Posted by F'kinRight:
“I think you make some very good points. But we could say similar things about 'chavs' or 'white trash'. I think in many ways Science is just a black version of Maxwell.”
“I think you make some very good points. But we could say similar things about 'chavs' or 'white trash'. I think in many ways Science is just a black version of Maxwell.”
Well yeah, they both could proably be called working class alpha males or something like that.
And both could be dislike for resons of snobbery. But there were major differences too. Science dealt with problems in an upfront way. Maxwell put a scab from his own body in Science's food. That is disgusting and cowardly.
Originally Posted by ShoppingGirl:
“I don't hate Science, but I hope he goes tonight. I'm white. I've met lots of loud, full on people in my life. Most of them don't argue loudly and relentlessly with anybody who happens to be standing near them though.
I don't think it's fair to liken Science's argumentative, verbally aggressive nature with the behaviour of Carribbean men in general - it's unhelpful and could be construed by some as you know what.”
“I don't hate Science, but I hope he goes tonight. I'm white. I've met lots of loud, full on people in my life. Most of them don't argue loudly and relentlessly with anybody who happens to be standing near them though.
I don't think it's fair to liken Science's argumentative, verbally aggressive nature with the behaviour of Carribbean men in general - it's unhelpful and could be construed by some as you know what.”
I agree. I am non-white but I don't think we should generalise about science's personality being a caribbean thing. It's like saying all cockney males are loud-mouthed, drunkards like maxwell. I have met alot of men like maxwell in my life who weren't necessarily cockney... Max is very much typical of your "Brits Abroad/Ibiza uncovered" male stereotype I admit, whereas Science isn't typical of caribbean men I know, but perhaps that's just my particular circle. I know Science says himself that "where he's from" his loudness is normal, but you can see just how well he conducted himself in his interview and didn't even bitch about his ex-HM however much they deserved it I think.
Originally Posted by hatboy:
“Well yeah, they both could proably be called working class alpha males or something like that.
And both could be dislike for resons of snobbery. But there were major differences too. Science dealt with problems in an upfront way. Maxwell put a scab from his own body in Science's food. That is disgusting and cowardly.”
“Well yeah, they both could proably be called working class alpha males or something like that.
And both could be dislike for resons of snobbery. But there were major differences too. Science dealt with problems in an upfront way. Maxwell put a scab from his own body in Science's food. That is disgusting and cowardly.”
I agree and I think Science should have calmed it down a bit and listened more and stepped away from arguments (in his defence he was being himself in that particular moment... we can see he didn't shout and was loud in his post-eviction interview). I certainly laugh at suggestions that people thought he would hit someone... I found maxwell way more aggressive in an argument and was positive he would have hit someone if Saskia hadn't stopped him on many of occassion.
I think that maybe the less educated didn't appreciate or see his intelligence and verbal wisdom behind his ranting. He made lots of very wise observations about people in the house and spoke truth about them, unfortunately he put it across in away that most people found aggressive instead of just LOUD and unaggressive.
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