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Talent Shows | Fading Into Obscurity |
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#1 |
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Talent Shows | Fading Into Obscurity
Why is it that talent show winners and runners up invariably fail in the music industry? What do you think are the reasons for it? Does a television phone-voting audience get bored with the winner the moment he or she releases an album?
There are a few exceptions. Will Young is releasing a third album later this month, and I expect it to sell around the same numbers as Robbie's new one. Girls Aloud have a new single out in November, and the only way it will fall short of number one is if it doesn't beat Will's single to the top (and it won't.) But GA have had more top 10 hits than any other girl group bar the Spice Girls, I think. And we mustn't forget G4, Lemar and, to a much lesser extent, Liberty X. But these exceptions are far outweighed by the countless failures. Steve Brookstein, Hear'Say, Alex Parks (despite a second album last week), David Something or Other, all those forgettable Fame Academy runners up, Michelle McManus, Sam & Mark, Zoe Birkett, Clea, Javine and Rowetta. Some of those have totally disappeared from the charts and can now be seen performing in third-rate hovels like Butlins (this is true.) So what are your thoughts? I want some thoughtful responses, boys. None of this "They're all crap" rubbish, without some decent speculation. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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My view is some of it has to do with the British trait of building someone up, only to knock them down.
It's almost like a sport in this country and the tabloids are particularly guilty of hyping someone to death, then tearing them apart. Once this happens everyone likes to join in and it's the death of that artist. But my main view is that these shows aren't finding talented musicians, just decent Karoke singers. You can't build a career in the music industry on that. |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Aug 2003
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Pure and simple - lack of support from the record company once the series is over. If the public's chosen winner does not tally with the record company's choice they will not be given the support and backing they need for a successful career.
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#4 |
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Posts: n/a
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gazdolphin
Why is it that talent show winners and runners up invariably fail in the music industry? What do you think are the reasons for it? Does a television phone-voting audience get bored with the winner the moment he or she releases an album?
There are a few exceptions. Will Young is releasing a third album later this month, and I expect it to sell around the same numbers as Robbie's new one. Girls Aloud have a new single out in November, and the only way it will fall short of number one is if it doesn't beat Will's single to the top (and it won't.) But GA have had more top 10 hits than any other girl group bar the Spice Girls, I think. And we mustn't forget G4, Lemar and, to a much lesser extent, Liberty X. But these exceptions are far outweighed by the countless failures. Steve Brookstein, Hear'Say, Alex Parks (despite a second album last week), David Something or Other, all those forgettable Fame Academy runners up, Michelle McManus, Sam & Mark, Zoe Birkett, Clea, Javine and Rowetta. Some of those have totally disappeared from the charts and can now be seen performing in third-rate hovels like Butlins (this is true.) So what are your thoughts? I want some thoughtful responses, boys. None of this "They're all crap" rubbish, without some decent speculation. Oh dear, that sounds like I've gone the long way round to saying "they're all crap", but that isn't what I meant. They're all good at what they are doing on the show (at least a lot better than I would be!); I just don't think that the pblic really wants more cover singers, not really. The reason they don't sell, I think, is that they don't have anything new to offer; most of them don't really inspire us. I will make an exception for young Sam, whom I think really did have something new to offer, singing as he did with a maturity well beyond his years (I have kept the video recording of "Mr BoJangles" because I think it's utterly amazing from a - what was he then - 17-year-old?). I have no idea why they made him team up with Mark. I'm afraid that's what killed it for him. He should entirely have gone solo straight away, it's like saying he wasn't good enough on his own, but he was. I'm not knocking Mark, I just think they were the wrong in partnership, and I think Sam was the better of the two anyway. The bottom line is that I don't think people are really interested in these kinds of acts, and certainly not in buying them! However, I am sure that many of these acts get plenty more live bookings after these kinds of shows. Maybe not as lucrative as a recording deal with someone who actually wants to promote you, but even singing at a 3rd rate holiday camp has got to be rather better than working at Macky D's, especially if you love singing. A point about recording deals: I know several very good local bands who have fallen into the recording contract trap and signed to a label who have then just sat on them for a few years so that they can't split the market. By singing they act, it's a cheap way of keeping them out of the way because they can't go and sign to anyone else, and so no-one gets to hear of them. I wonder if any fell into that trap! |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
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They're all crap
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#6 |
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 19,192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moogester
Pure and simple - lack of support from the record company once the series is over. If the public's chosen winner does not tally with the record company's choice they will not be given the support and backing they need for a successful career.
I agree with you, last year I thought G4 should've won because they offered something different. Steve is a great singer and he has a way with ballards but you get the impression covers is all he'll ever do. I wasn't keen on his cover of Luther's "Dance with my Father" but at least he can say he he had the first number 1 of 2005 by knocking Band Aid 20 off the top ( pub quiz question in a few years) |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Aug 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Ameche
Is that a sly dig at Hearsay?
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#8 |
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Join Date: May 2005
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if the people who voted for these acts bought the recordings every act would be sucessfull
but i think its a case of i want my act to win because i cant stand..insert name...winning so after these programmes as long as their act won they are happy, they proved the point that their act was best leaving it up to others to buy the recordings tell the truth, how many who vote buy the records |
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#9 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slappers r us
tell the truth, how many who vote buy the records Which means less than 0.1% of those who watched bought the album. |
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#10 |
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Join Date: Mar 2004
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Quote:
(I have kept the video recording of "Mr BoJangles" because I think it's utterly amazing from a - what was he then - 17-year-old?).
Hi there!Can you please tell me where you got the clip of this! I have performed 'Mr Bojangles' and won competitions with it and thought Sam sang it really well! but would love to see the perfomance! Thanks |
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#11 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody_Brixton
Well not exactly what you asked, but last year 10 million watched the X-Factor final. Steve went on to sell 93,000 albums.
Which means less than 0.1% of those who watched bought the album. Although 10 million didn't vote for Steve in the final - anyone know how many actually did vote for him - ? Anyway - the viewing figures and voting numbers (particularly multiple voting) give a totally false indication on how popular someone is. I watched X Factor avidly last year, but haven't bought anyone's album or single (yet....still waiting for Tabby - ) - I voted in the final, purely because at the time I didn't like one of the acts and would have preferred the other to win. Also, my mother in law watches these progamme avidly and votes like a maniac. She went ballistic over David Sneddon and voted for him like a mad woman, and last year she nearly numbed her fingers dialling for Steve. However - the last album she bought was when you could only get vinyl - she hasn't even got a CD player. She quickly loses interest in the artists once the competition is over. |
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#12 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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I think the first two replies got it bang on. The record buying public are incredibly fickle, and by the time the album actually comes out the backlash is well and truly in swing. People don't watch the X Factor to decide what records they want to buy - they watch it as TV entertainment.
The management and record companies have been appalling to just about every act so far. As much as I hate Louis Walsh and hate the acts he produces, he obviously knows his stuff and puts the time in. I suspect that Simon or Sharon would be the better mentors for the programme, but Louis longer-term record is pretty unassailable. Steve's album was really badly promoted, the poor guy had no chance. One other thing - people don't want to spend £15 on a CD of cover versions!!! I realise that the albums have to come out fairly quickly after the programme to capitalise on the publicity, but it's always going to destroy the acts credibility and thus reduce the likelihood of future success. I'd love it if - just once - the record company (don't know who's backing X Factor, but it was BMG for Pop Idol) gave the artist 6-12 months to record some quality material, then put it's full backing into it. It'll never happen though... |
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#13 |
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Join Date: Aug 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICGenie
I think the first two replies got it bang on. The record buying public are incredibly fickle, and by the time the album actually comes out the backlash is well and truly in swing. People don't watch the X Factor to decide what records they want to buy - they watch it as TV entertainment.
The management and record companies have been appalling to just about every act so far. As much as I hate Louis Walsh and hate the acts he produces, he obviously knows his stuff and puts the time in. I suspect that Simon or Sharon would be the better mentors for the programme, but Louis longer-term record is pretty unassailable. Steve's album was really badly promoted, the poor guy had no chance. One other thing - people don't want to spend £15 on a CD of cover versions!!! I realise that the albums have to come out fairly quickly after the programme to capitalise on the publicity, but it's always going to destroy the acts credibility and thus reduce the likelihood of future success. I'd love it if - just once - the record company (don't know who's backing X Factor, but it was BMG for Pop Idol) gave the artist 6-12 months to record some quality material, then put it's full backing into it. It'll never happen though... |
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#14 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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I think the other reason that these contestants do not usually go on to lucrative careers is because they genuinely do not have the X Factor! If you think about all the chart acts over the last 20 years who have had lasting careers, the likes of Steve Brookstein, Michelle Mcmanus and Gareth Gates just cannot compere to acts such as Madonna, Kylie Minogue and Robbie Williams....they are poor in comparison because they have nothing new and exciting to offer. They all lack a certain something. They do not have big enough personalities....
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#15 |
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 14,990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICGenie
I think the first two replies got it bang on. The record buying public are incredibly fickle, and by the time the album actually comes out the backlash is well and truly in swing. People don't watch the X Factor to decide what records they want to buy - they watch it as TV entertainment.
The management and record companies have been appalling to just about every act so far. As much as I hate Louis Walsh and hate the acts he produces, he obviously knows his stuff and puts the time in. I suspect that Simon or Sharon would be the better mentors for the programme, but Louis longer-term record is pretty unassailable. Steve's album was really badly promoted, the poor guy had no chance. One other thing - people don't want to spend £15 on a CD of cover versions!!! I realise that the albums have to come out fairly quickly after the programme to capitalise on the publicity, but it's always going to destroy the acts credibility and thus reduce the likelihood of future success. I'd love it if - just once - the record company (don't know who's backing X Factor, but it was BMG for Pop Idol) gave the artist 6-12 months to record some quality material, then put it's full backing into it. It'll never happen though... I think it comes down to two things in answer to the OP. One is that the viewers of XFactor aren't necessarily the record buying public. For most, they are voting for their favourites based on them singing covers week in week out live on telly, they are not voting for who they think will be more likely to succeed in the music industry. I'm sorry to say, but I'm one of those types of viewers, so is my boyfriend. I buy CD's based on their quality and whether I like the songs, not out of loyalty. If I vote for Journey South or Andy to win, then I'd only buy their CD if I thought it was any good not because they were my favourites in XFactor. The second is I think the credibility of these shows puts perspective buyers of their CDs off. To give Will Young credit although he was my favourite I didn't go near his debut album because I hated his single, and didn't think much to the rest of the album either, because it was definately done on the cheap to sell quickly and the quality of it was poor imo.........but he was able to do his own thing on his second album, and the quality of Will Young very definately came out then, 'Leave Right Now' was a very good song IMO and I happily have a copy of that album. But record producers/labels aren't giving these acts the chance to come up with their own stuff. They quickly and cheaply get an album out straight away to sell on the back of the show......and it works for a time, but 6 months later how many people still listen to that mostly shoddily produced CD? So in short my two reasons are a. that the viewers and voters aren't necessarily the record buying public......and b. that it is down to the management and the record label whether someone succeeds or not! |
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#16 |
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Posts: n/a
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My apologies in advance for repeating my theory.
They are all 'bit players' in the pantomime that is Saturday night television. Any success is due to the exposure they receive and has zilch to do with the programme.
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#17 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trinity2002
Steves album wasn't released until at least May of the next year, although his cover single was released straight away......and did get to No 1 which can be construed as sort of being successful surely ?
Agreed that the album wasn't released for 5 months, but it was still an album of cover versions. And like I said, very few people will spend their hard earned dosh on an album of covers by a relative unknown. |
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#18 |
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Join Date: Jan 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poodledoodledoo
the likes of Steve Brookstein, Michelle Mcmanus and Gareth Gates just cannot compere to acts such as Madonna, Kylie Minogue and Robbie Williams..........................They do not have big enough personalities....
'Mick' McManus had the biggest pair of 'personalities' I've seen in a long time! |
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#19 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICGenie
The single buying public and the album buying public inhibit two very different markets. I'm sure Steve is still delighted with his #1 single, but it was released in the quietest sales week of the year, and it is almost a foregone conclusion that the winner will have a #1 single.
Agreed that the album wasn't released for 5 months, but it was still an album of cover versions. And like I said, very few people will spend their hard earned dosh on an album of covers by a relative unknown. |
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#20 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
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Next year Pop Idol is coming back. I wonder how many viewers that programme will have?
I won't be watching. :yawn: |
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#21 |
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Posts: n/a
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Quote:
Originally Posted by media
I won't be watching. :yawn:
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#22 |
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Join Date: Aug 2003
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fannianni got it right, the main role of these shows is Saturday night family entertainment/reality TV etc; I don't think anyone really believes that most of these hopefuls have what it takes to compete with already established/successful bands & groups.
As with Big Brother, winning isn't necessarily as important/lucrative as getting lots of exposure and fame (Sam & Mark would never have ended up working for the BBC without Pop Idol etc.) |
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#23 |
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by media
Next year Pop Idol is coming back. I wonder how many viewers that programme will have?
I won't be watching. :yawn: The first series was good but the last was dire.. |
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#24 |
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Is it possible for someone now to have too much exposure? Think about it. We see these hopefulls week after week so could it be (rather like Christmas starting even earlier this year) that by the time the X Factor is over, the majority of the public get sick of them by then? I know there are a couple of exceptions i.e. Will, G4 and Girls Aloud, but could my theory explain why the others didn't go anywhere after the X Factor?
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#25 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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In a world of increasing complexity and blitzkrieg media coverage, to get noticed you have to be promoted long and loud to have any kind of success or impact. To do that costs money, and the people with that kind of money want a return on the investment, so they're not interested in risk. The result is an increasing trend to go with a safe bet, rather than try something new. Hence middle-of-the-road artists making albums of covers.
But there's a tension between what the promoters want to promote, and what the album-buying public want to buy. I don't want (and I WON'T buy) albums of covers, because I've already got umpteen copies of the songs free from the Sunday papers, usually by the original artists, and it's rare to find a cover that is as good as the original. (I said rare, not impossible) Instead I want new, fresh, different, original. But (within certain parameters) that's something different for each of us. Personally, I love Alex Parks' voice. She is sufficiently different for me to keep giving her a chance and buying her albums, at least until she proves it's a lost cause. I know others have posted on here that they're not impressed. Which makes my point - it's difficult to get "critical mass" for any one of those new things, and therefore difficult to make loadsamoney from them. So if you're the kind of person/organisation that WANTS to make loadsamoney, you stick with the formulaic and hope that it carries on working long enough to make your buck. If on the other hand you want to support and nurture the ART, then you put your money into promoting those more original artists, most of whom have to work their way up the hard way and probably never break into the big time at all. So I bought Alex, because she's different. I also bought Darius because I thought he was different and I liked his original music. I would never dream of buying Steve's album even though I was glad he won (after Rowetta was voted off ) and I would never vote - it's always been a waste of money, I can't believe it's taken some posters on here 'til now to realise it. SC made, what, £36 million the first year PI and AI were aired - he doesn't need my 35p and he ain't getting it!!!Round here we treat XF as light entertainment, a good laugh on a Saturday night, but it's not serious and it's (mostly) not worth investing £15 in the winner. Not when you compare it to acts like Keane and James Blunt. I defy anyone to actually listen to the lyrics of "Goodbye My Lover" or "No Bravery" and not be moved. That's a world away from yet another version of Desperado or La Vida Loca. |
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) and I would never vote - it's always been a waste of money, I can't believe it's taken some posters on here 'til now to realise it. SC made, what, £36 million the first year PI and AI were aired - he doesn't need my 35p and he ain't getting it!!!