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Old 21-11-2005, 15:20
locaputa
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YES, you do have a choice whether to chose to drink or not. Being an alcoholic is not a permanent identity for someone to inhabit, although most would think this.

Alcoholism and other addictions are about choice. The only thing controlling your actions is yourself and the only person responsible for them is you. NOT the alcohol, drugs, or whatever excuse others like to indugle in.

The misconception of alcoholism is harmful, but when seeing the addiction as a transitory state of mind, one can have the power to change. It's about being aware of your intention and the root to why abuse of activities occur. Also, modifying the behavior such as moderation is also very helpful.


Just my take.


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Old 21-11-2005, 15:24
V39
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it is not always a choice. i have seen an alchoholic battle over the years to try and stop but they can't. it is an addiction the sam way smoking is or peoples addiction to caffiene. With the right help some are lucky to stop and never drink again but there aret hose who try as the may cannot overcome thecraving.
When you watch someon go through the effects of withdrawl you will see choice does not come into it.
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Old 21-11-2005, 15:29
locaputa
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Originally Posted by V39
it is not always a choice. i have seen an alchoholic battle over the years to try and stop but they can't. it is an addiction the sam way smoking is or peoples addiction to caffiene. With the right help some are lucky to stop and never drink again but there aret hose who try as the may cannot overcome thecraving.
When you watch someon go through the effects of withdrawl you will see choice does not come into it.
Withdrawal is a state of mind that is a result of how we think about the world. Clinging and not letting go of attachments is the cause of most suffering. This is not isolated to chemicals, people abuse all sorts of things. It's a perception of the world that is faulty. Blaming alcohol on a dysfunctinal way of thinking is wrong and only makes matters worse because the real issues are not addressed.

"The devil made me do it" is a perfect example of this.
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Old 21-11-2005, 16:12
Nancy Leathers
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Although this is a very nice way to look at the world, and to say every action is based on rational decision and choice, it's surely hopelessly misguided. It is all nice and good to assume that we have free will and free choice in everything we do, but freedom is more often than not illusory.

Alcoholism, certainly as I have experienced in other around me, is caused by a number of things. It is often a mix of an unhappy life, a spiral of depression and then single trigger that turns the situation from somebody merely drinking, to someone who relies on the drink for something else. Alcoholics look towards the alcohol as relief from something else. Memories of their childhood, their adult relationships, supposed inadequacies. Alcohol serves as a relief and more often than not a very temporary confidence booster. They see the alcohol as an effective way out of their troubles, whereas it is more often than not only the beginning.

Alcoholism is thus a mixture of psychological programming and the chemical responses it demands and creates in the body. Sure alcoholism needs vast psychological treatment, but to deny the body's actual need and the physical side of alcoholism is akin to purifying the body but leaving the demon within. It is why the body goes through a chemical change if alcoholics suddenly go "cold turkey." They can wet the bed, experience tremors, violent mood swings, tiredness or even narcolepsy. The body has demanded a chemical substance for a long time, and it has suddenly been withdrawn. YES alcoholism is a psychological disorder, but there is no denying the physical side of the disorder and both need to be dealt with to over come the problem.


I think all the major Soaps have dealt with alcoholism admirably when they have featured it in a storyline. It is a very hot political potato and one that would need to be dealt with correctly. And this is all on top of how difficult it is to change th perception of someone. whose world view is so skewed, that they are resistant to change....

Last edited by Nancy Leathers : 21-11-2005 at 16:29.
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Old 21-11-2005, 16:24
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Good post Nancy, agree with all you've said.
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Old 21-11-2005, 16:48
Caramel
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I find your solution rather simplistic Iocaputa.

Any addiction is far more complicated than a mere lifestyle choice.

Good post Nancy.
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Old 21-11-2005, 16:57
Polly_Perkins
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Good post Nancy. There is a great deal of ignorance regarding the issue on this board and I guess in reality. Someone posted yesterday that the withdrawal is not like 'heroin' so why all the drama on Corrie. When factually its WORSE than coming off heroin.

Corrie are being very accurate and well done to them.
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Old 21-11-2005, 16:59
locaputa
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Originally Posted by Nancy Leathers
Although this is a very nice way to look at the world, and to say every action is based on rational decision and choice, it's surely hopelessly misguided. It is all nice and good to assume that we have free will and free choice in everything we do, but freedom is more often than not illusory.

Alcoholism, certainly as I have experienced in other around me, is caused by a number of things. It is often a mix of an unhappy life, a spiral of depression and then single trigger that turns the situation from somebody merely drinking, to someone who relies on the drink for something else. Alcoholics look towards the alcohol as relief from something else. Memories of their childhood, their adult relationships, supposed inadequacies. Alcohol serves as a relief and more often than not a very temporary confidence booster. They see the alcohol as an effective way out of their troubles, whereas it is more often than not only the beginning.

Alcoholism is thus a mixture of psychological programming and the chemical responses it demands and creates in the body. Sure alcoholism needs vast psychological treatment, but to deny the body's actual need and the physical side of alcoholism is akin to purifying the body but leaving the demon within. It is why the body goes through a chemical change if alcoholics suddenly go "cold turkey." They can wet the bed, experience tremors, violent mood swings, tiredness or even narcolepsy. The body has demanded a chemical substance for a long time, and it has suddenly been withdrawn. YES alcoholism is a psychological disorder, but there is no denying the physical side of the disorder and both need to be dealt with to over come the problem.


I think all the major Soaps have dealt with alcoholism admirably when they have featured it in a storyline. It is a very hot political potato and one that would need to be dealt with correctly. And this is all on top of how difficult it is to change th perception of someone. whose world view is so skewed, that they are resistant to change....
Yes, once the body is used to a chemical it can either reject it or crave it. But the key to how your body will react is the individual's psyche. Some quit smoking cold turkey, no cravings, others quit and go back for more. Psychosomatic symptoms are frequent with craving. Physical manifestions of inner turmoil occur, but you can control the suffering by perceiving yourself and the situation differently.

Another faulty facet of this debate is the all or nothing thinking. Either you drink too much or you don't drink at all. The real test is for someone to be able to drink without the abuse. Abstaining is unnecessary, moderation is.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:00
Lippincote
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Originally Posted by Polly_Perkins
Good post Nancy. There is a great deal of ignorance regarding the issue on this board and I guess in reality. Someone posted yesterday that the withdrawal is not like 'heroin' so why all the drama on Corrie. When factually its WORSE than coming off heroin.

Corrie are being very accurate and well done to them.
Yes I saw that post, it does reveal a good deal of ignorance about alcoholism.

I guess maybe it is because most people on here enjoy a drink themselves, whereas they have never taken heroin, so they think - what's the problem, Carol drank too much, now she just has to stop. I bet George Best et al wish it was as simple as that.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:02
locaputa
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Originally Posted by Caramel
I find your solution rather simplistic Iocaputa.

Any addiction is far more complicated than a mere lifestyle choice.

Good post Nancy.
Lifestyle choice? This is cognitive therapy. Changing the way one thinks about the world is the only way you can change. And Caramel, most solutions are simple, it's the process that's hard.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:04
locaputa
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Originally Posted by Lippincote
Yes I saw that post, it does reveal a good deal of ignorance about alcoholism.

I guess maybe it is because most people on here enjoy a drink themselves, whereas they have never taken heroin, so they think - what's the problem, Carol drank too much, now she just has to stop. I bet George Best et al wish it was as simple as that.
Lip, ignorance would be your cup of tea. What I've stated is logical and you have in no way disproven any of my points. Understanding the way the mind works is important in this debate. If you have none, then ask questions rather making ass umptions.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:08
locaputa
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Originally Posted by Lippincote
Yes I saw that post, it does reveal a good deal of ignorance about alcoholism.

I guess maybe it is because most people on here enjoy a drink themselves, whereas they have never taken heroin, so they think - what's the problem, Carol drank too much, now she just has to stop. I bet George Best et al wish it was as simple as that.
Most would love to blame everything but themselves on why their lives are ****ed up. It's a just another way of not taking responsibility. No drug causes anyone to lose a job or be abusive, it is only that person who makes the choice to do so.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:11
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Originally Posted by locaputa
Lip, ignorance would be your cup of tea. What I've stated is logical and you have in no way disproven any of my points. Understanding the way the mind works is important in this debate. If you have none, then ask questions rather making ass umptions.
I wasn't referring to your post, I was referring to the one Polly mentioned. As I am sure you must be aware.

If your point is supposed to be about how the mind works, I am not sure how Corrie are portraying alcoholism in the 'wrong' way. They are showing how Carol's mind is working - which seems completely reasonable to me. She obviously doesn't have your philosophical turn of mind, which is hardly surprising since she's been befuddled by alcohol for nearly 20 years.

I won't return the sly dig
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:14
locaputa
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Originally Posted by Polly_Perkins
Good post Nancy. There is a great deal of ignorance regarding the issue on this board and I guess in reality. Someone posted yesterday that the withdrawal is not like 'heroin' so why all the drama on Corrie. When factually its WORSE than coming off heroin.

Corrie are being very accurate and well done to them.
Corrie are being accurate depending on how you view addiction. But I'm saying that this is outdated and so... 80s. In this new day, psychology has cognitive therapy. Addiction is not about the drug, it's about the mind. Ever seen 'Requiem for a Dream'? Do you also know that not everyone reacts the same to drugs? This is because we all think differently and have different bodies. The foreign substance is more of a symptom than the real issue.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:17
locaputa
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Originally Posted by Lippincote
I wasn't referring to your post, I was referring to the one Polly mentioned. As I am sure you must be aware.

If your point is supposed to be about how the mind works, I am not sure how Corrie are portraying alcoholism in the 'wrong' way. They are showing how Carol's mind is working - which seems completely reasonable to me. She obviously doesn't have your philosophical turn of mind, which is hardly surprising since she's been befuddled by alcohol for nearly 20 years.

I won't return the sly dig
*bows before Lip* Please accept my apologies. That was rude and I hope you didn't take it too seriously. The last scene when she said she had no control and her son encouraged her to say 'the magic words'. How trite. She does have a choice and I wish addiction would be protrayed in a more appropiate way.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:18
Crystal Clear
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Originally Posted by Polly_Perkins
Good post Nancy. There is a great deal of ignorance regarding the issue on this board and I guess in reality. Someone posted yesterday that the withdrawal is not like 'heroin' so why all the drama on Corrie. When factually its WORSE than coming off heroin.

Corrie are being very accurate and well done to them.
That is by far the most stupid comment I have ever seen on these boards. Once your on herion for most the only way off is death. I suggest you look up herion addiction because you have no idea whay your talking about Polly.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:23
locaputa
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Originally Posted by Crystal Clear
That is by far the most stupid comment I have ever seen on these boards. Once your on herion for most the only way off is death. I suggest you look up herion addiction because you have no idea whay your talking about Polly.
This is my point. Recovering from addiction and having withdrawal symptoms depends on your state of mind, not the substance except for extreme cases of heroin use. The body starts to deterioate without the substance, but this is not in all cases.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:28
Crystal Clear
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Originally Posted by locaputa
This is my point. Recovering from addiction and having withdrawal symptoms depends on your state of mind, not the substance except for extreme cases of heroin use. The body starts to deterioate without the substance, but this is not in all cases.

I agree with what you have said and your right with it. The only reason you have had a bad response is because some of the Corrie fans have become upset that someone made a thread like this. EE fans are just the same at times this board is just like a bitch forum. All the good posts just get over looked by stupid remarks like Alcoholism is worse than herion addiction. Which could not be further from the truth.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:37
locaputa
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Originally Posted by Crystal Clear
I agree with what you have said and your right with it. The only reason you have had a bad response is because some of the Corrie fans have become upset that someone made a thread like this. EE fans are just the same at times this board is just like a bitch forum. All the good posts just get over looked by stupid remarks like Alcoholism is worse than herion addiction. Which could not be further from the truth.
I've always been an EE fan and have recently become a fan of Corrie as well. I don't understand the rivalry, both are great shows. But it was so horrible to hear Jaime's mom screaming and crying and not being responsible for her crap. The writing was so Alcoholics Anonymous, very misguided. I did like how they showed the codependency with her support system.

I really don't like to say what's worse as far as withdrawal goes, because people's experiences are their own and to try to measure how horrible an experience is in my book is pointless. The point is that it's painful for some and this is because of not wanting to let go. Learning to appreciate the moment can help in a big way. This is how people moderate themselves.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:41
Nancy Leathers
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Originally Posted by Crystal Clear
That is by far the most stupid comment I have ever seen on these boards. Once your on herion for most the only way off is death. I suggest you look up herion addiction because you have no idea whay your talking about Polly.
Rather than simply attacking Polly's statement lets look at the logic behind it. The physical effects of Heroin are dramatically worse for you in any one sessions for a user than alcohol. However since alcoholics will be able to survive longer on their drug of choice, the long terms effects become more cumulative and thus things like long term resistance to the drug, dependency on it and the mental state around the drug are much stronger than those of heroin.
The short terms effects of alcoholism are not such a blur from reality as those of heroin. Alcohol distorts reality, heroin completely shifts it. Heroin will often kill if help isn;t sought soon, true, but to say that most people's way off heroin is to die from it is both incorrect and misguided about the drug.



Originally Posted by locaputa
*bows before Lip* Please accept my apologies. That was rude and I hope you didn't take it too seriously. The last scene when she said she had no control and her son encouraged her to say 'the magic words'. How trite. She does have a choice and I wish addiction would be protrayed in a more appropiate way.
locaputa. I can see that you have an understanding that the main problem behind alcohol abuse is mental. However I feel that you are both dismissing the physical side of addiction while giving the human will far too much credit.

The physical side of addiction is often similar to a trigger in a human body. The human body is simply a machine that reacts in many ways to stimulus. It can be programmed to respond to something over a period of time. This reaction can evolve and change, and indeed interrupted by the will, BUT NOT ALWAYS. You give far too much credence to the fact that we are all free and choose to perform every action. It is similar to saying that if we put our hand in a fire then the choice to remove it is our won and not a response to stimulus. Sure we can put the hand back in. Sure we can reprogramme our brain. However this take massive discipline and a great deal of mental toughness.

I'm not saying free will is an illusion, but as alcoholics are often taught the first way to recovery is to admit the problem in the first place. Carol in Corrie couldn't admit she was an alcoholic, so wouldn't reduce how much she drank. Although true in the 80's this is still true now. To solve the problem, whether mental or physical you must know what the problem is. Jamie forcing the confession out of his mum is a change in the psychological response that you wish her to perform. It is not so easy to suddenly not become a slave to your emotions despite knowing you don;t have to. Alcoholics are often know to say, I could stop anytime I wanted to , I just don't want to. Yes it requires reconditioning of the brain. But since the brain is part of the human body, it can slip back in into its old way of thinking (like an alcoholic, at the merest drop of alcohol.) This is way in the vast vast majority of cases abstinence is the only way and not moderation.

I suppose what I am trying to get at is, the choice to give up alcohol is not easy as it requires the mind to go against everything the body is telling it, both consciously and subconsciously. Yes it can be done, and yes there is a massive part of recovery that is based around re-conditioning. However there are also physical elements that effect the body. This cannot be overlooked nor ignored, To assume that the mind is simply a "ghost in the machine" as Descartes put it, is to misunderstand how alcoholics gain their addiction
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:52
Crystal Clear
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Originally Posted by Nancy Leathers
Rather than simply attacking Polly's statement lets look at the logic behind it. The physical effects of Heroin are dramatically worse for you in any one sessions for a user than alcohol. However since alcoholics will be able to survive longer on their drug of choice, the long terms effects become more cumulative and thus things like long term resistance to the drug, dependency on it and the mental state around the drug are much stronger than those of heroin.
The short terms effects of alcoholism are not such a blur from reality as those of heroin. Alcohol distorts reality, heroin completely shifts it. Heroin will often kill if help isn;t sought soon, true, but to say that most people's way off heroin is to die from it is both incorrect and misguided about the drug.




Perhaps you should read up on it.

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/heroin.html

http://www.drugscope.org.uk/druginfo...n_opiates.html

Herion addiction kills more people in the UK each year than alcoholism. How many ex herion addicts have met? and how many alcoholics have you met? The fact is no one ever hears from an ex herion addict because you simply will not find them.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:53
locaputa
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Originally Posted by Nancy Leathers


locaputa. I can see that you have an understanding that the main problem behind alcohol abuse is mental. However I feel that you are both dismissing the physical side of addiction while giving the human will far too much credit.

The physical side of addiction is often similar to a trigger in a human body. The human body is simply a machine that reacts in many ways to stimulus. It can be programmed to respond to something over a period of time. This reaction can evolve and change, and indeed interrupted by the will, BUT NOT ALWAYS. You give far too much credence to the fact that we are all free and choose to perform every action. It is similar to saying that if we put our hand in a fire then the choice to remove it is our won and not a response to stimulus. Sure we can put the hand back in. Sure we can reprogramme our brain. However this take massive discipline and a great deal of mental toughness.

I'm not saying free will is an illusion, but as alcoholics are often taught the first way to recovery is to admit the problem in the first place. Carol in Corrie couldn't admit she was an alcoholic, so wouldn't reduce how much she drank. Although true in the 80's this is still true now. To solve the problem, whether mental or physical you must know what the problem is. Jamie forcing the confession out of his mum is a change in the psychological response that you wish her to perform. It is not so easy to suddenly not become a slave to your emotions despite knowing you don;t have to. Alcoholics are often know to say, I could stop anytime I wanted to , I just don't want to. Yes it requires reconditioning of the brain. But since the brain is part of the human body, it can slip back in into its old way of thinking (like an alcoholic, at the merest drop of alcohol.) This is way in the vast vast majority of cases abstinence is the only way and not moderation.

I suppose what I am trying to get at is, the choice to give up alcohol is not easy as it requires the mind to go against everything the body is telling it, both consciously and subconsciously. Yes it can be done, and yes there is a massive part of recovery that is based around re-conditioning. However there are also physical elements that effect the body. This cannot be overlooked nor ignored, To assume that the mind is simply a "ghost in the machine" as Descartes put it, is to misunderstand how alcoholics gain their addiction
I agree. Great post. I am not ignoring the physical manifestations of addiction. My point was that sometimes the withdrawal symptoms can be lessened or intensified depending on how the individual processes the experience. With the propoer tools of changing cognition, one can overcome this kind of experience in a less painful way.

I was also mentioning that sometimes the body is ill because of the messages we are telling ourselves. If one is cycling thoughts over and over and works themself into a state of neurosis and anxiety, the stomach, head, heart, etc can be affected.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:54
locaputa
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Originally Posted by Crystal Clear
Perhaps you should read up on it.

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/heroin.html

http://www.drugscope.org.uk/druginfo...n_opiates.html

Herion addiction kills more people in the UK each year than alcoholism. How many ex herion addicts have met? and how many alcoholics have you met? The fact is no one ever hears from an ex herion addict because you simply will not find them.
I know ex heroin addicts personally. Stars like Eric Clapton have come off it.
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Old 21-11-2005, 17:57
Crystal Clear
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Originally Posted by locaputa
I know ex heroin addicts personally. Stars like Eric Clapton have come off it.

Yeah a big star who has the money to book himself into a clinic for six months what about the normal people on the street who have to spend their money on the drug itself?
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Old 21-11-2005, 18:05
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We did this in School just the other week anyway both alcoholism and herion addiction are bad. I think the affects of long term Herion abuse are far greater like Crystal Clear said and coming off it is the worst withdrawal you can get but with an alcoholic you are never cured. It will always be there. So both are just as bad.
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