fan-at-ic

i also saw the footage of the party stripper to which you refer and found it deeply distrubing.

those ******'s involved seemed to get off on the basis she was a 'stripper'. that was far from the argument that i thought you were making - i guess that some people just wish to misconstrue that which they wish to misconstrue.

in the footage to which you refer, the distress of the woman concerned was obvious while she did not directly fight the assault. SHE WAS RAPED.

EVEN WITHOUT THE 30SEC BB EDIT BEING PLACED IN CONTEXT (and from other postings i believe there is a context) jade did not appear to be distressed by event - merely 'playfully embarrased. i agree that this embarrasment is uncomfortable viewing and that the humour in the situation escapes me; BUT let's not play 'the emperor with no clothes' merely to point score.

more importantly - LET'S NOT UNDERMINE REAL ABUSE

Deerd
becoming uncofortable with the lynch-mob mentality of these threads

Nicola ... I believe you also posted this in another thread too (in which I ask the same question) ....

Is this fact or supposition - can you substantiate?

The only reason I ask is that others are quoting this as factual - and if it can be traced as such, I would like to know.

Thanks in advance

When it all boils down to it, it's simply a case of, that Kate and Jonny were wrong to do what they did, but why did BB cut it from the E4 coverage, then deem it good enough entertainment to show in a highlights show and what ultimately, were their motives for showing those scenes. Surely, they must have known that they would stir up a bit of controversy and unease amongst some viewers.

Very true - that was really their sole defence...it made me ashamed to be male watching that footage...


True...I've forgotten the context in which I mentioned this awful footage, but I hope I didn't imply anything else?


I agree with this sentiment too...I'm just not sure if you were posting to challenge what I'd said or to agree? Since I think we're both saying the same thing, I hope it's the latter or else I've failed to say what I meant as I certainly agree with your post...

You've contradicted yourself there. Surely, if you can say hand on heart, that it's something you wouldn't do, or would comfortable watching, then you have reason to complain, and it can't be deemed harmless fun.

How is it a contradiction to accept that other peoples morals and behaviours are allowed to be different from my own? Geesh, I'm not some ultimate authority on moral behaviour. I WOULD feel uncomfortable watching it, and as I said in another post (was it? in this thread?) I'd have a word with both sides after the fact too...What I wouldn't do is jump in to try and stop it unless I felt Jade was really in distress...I would probably ask this at the time and if she said even in laughing that she was then I'd take steps to try and help her...I've yet to see a contridiction in anything I've said as I've thought it through again...can you explain?

I don't deny that I may hold contradicting views at the same time sometimes, and I don't have a problem with that...I think anyone that can't see two sides of issues and weigh them to form an overall opinion or action in any particular situation is acting on partial information...

Ahh, I just thought...If I'm uncomforatable watching then I'd be the one being harrassed? Is that your point?....I didn't think of this as I assumed I'd walk away once I'd satisfied myself the situation wasn't out of hand...or if I stayed to act as support in case it did, that would be my dicision...not something I could complain about....(my typing is failing...I need sleep)

If this happened in the workplace, it could definitely be deemed as sexual harrassment, or maybe even assault.

But in the context it's been shown, it's difficult to know what Jades true thoughts are.
She may take it up with someone afterwards.
But if she finds it just good fun in her own eyes it'll probably blow over.

But it'll be interesting to see what her mum thinks, and whether she(her mum), does anything about this.

Even if Jade isn't bothered, Channel 4, may be in trouble if enough viewers find it offensive and complain. It may breach the standards set concerning bad taste and indecency.

I'm not exactly sure how wrong it was, but it's becoming a pattern now.
Just because they've got her naked once, they're doing it again and again.

It just looks to me as though the girl is being degraded and exploited to some extent.

Maybe it may be due to the fact that it's being shown to millions that makes me feel a little concerned for what's happening. And that's what makes it look..........well wrong.

I don't think it'll come to any legal proceedings though.

Thank heavens for that. That's exactly what I was thinking when I typed it.

You think your typing is failing. I'm drunk and in need of sleep as well.

This is exactly where I'm coming from. Others may see it as ok, but her Mum may take a different stance on it, which could shed a different light on it. Then, if viewers complain as well, what could happen then?

It's also, like you said, just 'cos they've got her naked on the one occasion, they seem to think it's ok to get her naked whenever they see fit now, just for their unadulterated amusement, which means that Jade is being exploited by Jonny and Kate.

But, you now see where I'm coming from. Call me a prude if you like, but I just haven't felt comfortable seeing Jade exploited as a figure of fun by her other HM's, especially when she's been naked.

What happened was childish, irritating and no worse than what happens up and down the country every sunny weekend. My reaction would probably have been much the same as Alex and Tim's - ie OMG how tedious, but then I'm a self-confessed old fart. Had I been in the house I certainly would have been nommed as an uptight killjoy long before now. Nevertheless we have to keep some feeble fingerhold on reality here

I've said for quite some time that the play fights were getting out of hand - although Jonny has usually been the main instigator I was especially unimpressed by Alex's pinning of Kate which I thought had definite sexual implications on his part and during which her protests sounded far more serious than Jade's in the pool. Nevertheless she was more than friendly with him afterwards.

IMO Jade was quite happy with what was going on at least up until being teased with the depositing of the bottoms out of reach - they were, however, retrieved for her. To take her happy squeals for serious protests is frankly ludicrous and any reference to molestation grotesque.

fan-at-ic

sooooo saying the same thing. in regards to the footage that we both saw i had (deliberately) not intended to watch the programme but, due to personal experience and the experiences of those i have since worked with and hopefully helped counsel i felt i should.

it was DIFFICULT viewing (thre's an understatement to save on sensibility for the forum).

if i thought that jade had genuinely suffered unwarranted behaviour i would be the first the condemn, indeed pursue, those responsible.

the evidence is still sketchy, but looking pretty tenuous. the tenor of these thread have disturbed me more than any others in my ds experience.

the use of the abuse issue for hm (faves) point scoring is reprehensible. i know that there are those who, from the 30sec edit, genuinely beleive that jade was placed in an abusive situ (i think they are wrong) but fair play. however, tooooo many just don't like kate/jonny and to use this is at best sad, at worst reprehensible.

Deerd
:'(

Well said old son!

I think the point is whether or not Jade chooses to remove her clothes in front of millions of viewers.

On this occasion it would seem to me that she had no choice. As per usual the child\man Jonny is at the heart of things. Just like the playground bully he removes choice from his victim and procedes to humiliate her. He seems to think that this sort of behaviour will make him the most popular kiddy in the class.

Since BB has shown no sign of intervening in this type of behaviour the victim is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Unless she is prepared to let him force her out of the back door she has no alternative other than to treat this as a jolly jape and laugh along with it.!!!!!!!!!

Remember how Jonny reacted when Lynne opened the toilet door on him? Where was your sense of humour then Canny Lad?? Not so funny when the shoe's on the other foot eh?

Jonny and Kate's stripping of Jade was a disgrace - very unpleasant to see this on the telly.
They behaved the same way when they encouraged her to strip on the sofa a few nights ago - rigging the game against Jade so that she would suffer further forfeits. How horrid Jonny & Kate are - they knew Jade was drunk and yet they chose not to stop the game or to offer her something with which to cover herself up !
What sort of woman allows a fellow woman, whom she knows is very drunk and not particularly bright, to be repeatedly treated like this ?
As for Jonny this incident, once again, shows the base, toilet side of his humour and personality. Also, as we've seen before, he is a nasty bully - and thats the least offensive description for a man that continually treats a woman like this. What next Jonny boyo - slap Jade around a bit for not bringing you your tea !

Have you all noticed how quiet Jonnys mates are on this thread.
Where are they all ?

for some reason (prob my luddite tendencies) our post seem to have run into each other in the latter part of this thread and may, therefore, make for some confusing reading.

i'm not sure i understand your reference to my not mentioning specific hms???? i would have thought given the nature of the thread this was obvious.

i've made a few posts on this thread already and continue to stand by those above.

your's is the first to make this about 'bullying' rather than sexual assault. for this i commend you and suggest that you have a better, although in my view (given jade's obvious participation) case to make than those above.

i really have no wish to share certain personal experience, but should this (or other similar threads) continue this lynch-mob manner i may even consider putting myself out there in aqn effort to dispell to seming myths about that which consitutes real abuse.

the 30sec footage was unpleasant/unfunny/distastful - but it just wasn't enough to prove bully/abuse/molestation.

Deerd
hope our posts running together hasn't caused you a prob - no doubt we'll speak again soon.

I'm reckoning that you might have been referring to something in my post, as well as maybe others..

I'm not getting in to one of those favourite housemate arguements. It could have been any housemates involved in the situation.

I'm just saying how I felt about what appeared on screen.

For me to just try and point score over something like that is something I'd feel ashamed of. It's unfair of you to assume that because of any differing opinions that we've had before, that you think I would be as insensitive as that.

I said that it looked as though she was being degraded and exploited to some extent. That extent could be very minor.
She was the figure of fun in that scenario, and I don't believe that both Jonny and Kate were aware of how bad it was coming across.
They have been encouraging Jade to get naked, whether it be in good spirits or not, and it may (or may not be) getting out of hand. You have to realise this.

But you honestly have to ask yourself whether YOUR favour of any housemates is getting in the way, for you to accuse me of point scoring.

The doubts over exploitation were as much directed on the editors as anyone else, who seemed to show little discretion in that instance.

As I said in my last post, I don't know to what extent it was wrong, because usually that situation doesn't usually happen in front of millions of viewers.

I also said that it will probably blow over if Jade has no qualms about it. But...her mum may bring it up, and how would Jade react then?

Like I said finishing my last post, I don't think it will turn out badly. And will probably get forgotten about.

And I have to say that I am genuinely sorry if I offended you, or anyone else.
I saw something on screen which was slightly uncomfortable and I expressed my views.
I thought that the main focus was on Jade, and whoever else was involved is to some degree irrelevant.
It was a mistake, I feel, to do that on television, but it may have had more to do with misjudgement than anything else.

Honestly my post was concerning whether or not it was a serious situation, and if you read my post again, you'll see I tried to make it balanced, without name-calling. It just happens that Jonny and Kate were involved, and I definitley felt that the scene was degrading to Jade.

When I get in to Jonny bashing mode, that's just fun and I reserve that for a different type of thread.
This is a thread I came onto because I saw people discussing something that I wondered about myself.

Nothing to do with favourite housemates etc.

I am truly sorry if I upset you in any way.

For the last comment: please, cut out the sexist crap.
Kate is an adult: she does not need special allowance because of her "handicap" of being female. The idea that every time one of the girlies does sommat inapt it is because they were follwong the blokes is absurd. If Kate took part (looked like she was half the team to me) she deserves half the blame.


If the KMs were baboons it would look like they were playing out some dominance ritual. Jonny wants to be the dominant male for sure. His harmless (?????) little games of physical domination, especially the comments he made taking off his belt to chase and beat the "girls" show that whilst he might be controlling his tongue for the camera the cave man is still inside.

Kate, in her own way is confirming (by her acceptance of his tactics) the notion that women like to be physically overpowered and dominated by men - or is it that she is just going along with Jonny for tactical reasons and once the last nomination is over the partnership is dead.


Boot Jonny out:

Since many here seem to excuse Jade everything because she has been attributed the mental age of a child ...

... does abusing a child become OK because the child appeared to participate willingly?


Controversial maybe: but the question should be:
"did Jade ask them to come in the pool and strip her"?
NO
"Did jade tell them to stop"
YES (several times).
Did they stop
NO

There is something very nasty in the jonnykate pairing.

Jonny and Kate wouldn't have dared this bollox when Adele was there.
They are bullys and cowards.

oohhhh Alrightmate

i can honestly say that none of my comments were directly in relation to any posts that you have made, indeed, there are only a very few whom i suspect of point scoring in this instance and you are not one of them.

in general terms, i have been concerned about the free use of misnomers, 'molestation' & 'abuse' etc.

at MOST only 1/4 case of sexual assault/rape cases lead to conviction (are 3/4 lying????) and this is only the cases that reach court. the PF in scotland is marginally better at pursuing cases than the CPS in england and wales (BUT THE FIGURES NEVER GET TO ADD UP).


perhaps, i'm overly sensitive but i just feel that there are some who are using the 'pool' thing to score hm points.

immediately upon seeing the 30sec edit i began reassessing my view of kate and jonny. this was particularly tough 'cos i have supported K from early doors and J has been my 2nd for the last few weeks.

many of the threads concerned have shown that there was much greater context to the 'pool' thing than that which was shown.

even then i am concerned that K, in particular, would indulge in these kind of antics. i am confused as to my feelings regarding all the hms involved in this distastful incident and i am not defending K specifically.

indeed, i'm am now considering whether this is enough to change my long-held view of her (i think this willingness to give thought to is something that some others on these recent threads have been lacking).

overall, i genuinely do not believe that jade was coerced/involutarily abused and i hope as more info becomes available i am proven right. should i be proven wrong i will have some diff hm fave decision(s) to make; but at least i hope not to have to factor a continuing lynch-mob into my decision(s).

most of all it concerns me that on accusations/issues such as this we (this forum) are too eager to jump into the fray - i'm as gulity as most; maybe just in the sense that a poss non-issue has been made something it ought not to be.

Deerd
thinking, considering but, mainly, still worrying that overall this forum has done a real diservice to real sufferers of abuse.

I think the issue here is not so much one of sexual molestation as one of bullying, as Jade has increasingly become the victim of the Jonny/Kate prank machine.

Jade has been having trouble integrating with the rest of the group the last couple of weeks, and I think they are taking advantage of her vulnerability - through allowing herself to be the butt of these jokes, she probably thinks she's getting 'close' to the group again. I found it sad rather than disturbing to watch, and further evidence of Jonny's intimidating, overbearing personality.

Inevitably someone is going to bring up the Alex water-squirting, but to me that was in a different league and doesn't compare to ganging up to forcibly strip someone.

Kate has gone down in my estimation since this incident, I have to say.

Deerd

Thinking is a wonderful idea.

One thought to add though is that in the vast majority of occasions real abuse/violence is ususlly preceeded by the "sparring" phase.

The raised arm becomes the slap becomes the punch ...

The teasing becomes wrestling becomes a grope gecomes ...

It is as much the perpetrator as the victim that determine whether it progresses. The victim, while not to blame, does influence the outcome. As someone said: Jonnykate might have started on Adele but would soon have backed down. "Fun" or not she would not have played the game to the conclusion.


I do not think that Jonny will necessarily progress to real assault, especially outside the BB environment.
What is uncomfortable to watch, maybe, is seeing the seeds of this behaviour in someone who appears so genial in other ways.