Zoe should go - Page 3 - Digital Spy Forums

Zoe should go

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Veri

06-12-2005

Originally Posted by luckyforest:
“If you compare the achievements of all the celebrities (both female and male), then Zoe is definitely the one who achieved the least.

One thing people keep ignoring is the very different role the male and female celebrities are playing in the dance floor. Why is it so difficult for people to understand that there's different role for man and woman in the dance floor. In the dance floor, man is to lead and woman to follow. It's like watching Ready Steady Cook, on each side there's a chef and then an assistant. How much the assistant can contribute is really depends on the delegation (cherography in this case), the best she can be a partner, but she can never take over the role of the chef.

Last year Jill and Denise were capable to make significant contribution, Zoe is no where close to them, she's so well protected by Ian, which in a way, Ian is the chef and she's only the assistant.

On the other sides, the three men, Colin, Darren & James, they were made the head chef and have to lead in the dance floor. Their female professional partners can only assist them but they can't never cover their mistakes or anything. In other words, the man really have to cook while the female can only help. OK, they might not be able to cook an excellent dish, but it's all their own work. On the other sides the female celebrities might help to finish a good dish, but they still haven't managed to cook, they are only assisting.

It's unfair to judge them based on the dishes they made. It's only fair to judge on their contribution and achievement. Afterall they all start from nothing. Unfortunately the judges seems to forget about all these completely, and that's why they've lost their credibility.”

Every thing you say in there is wrong.

In truth:

Zoe has not achieved the least.

People are not ignoring the different roles of male and female dangers. Not do they have have any difficulty understanding the difference.

You, on the other hand, do misunderstand the male/female roles which are not very like the chef and assistant in Ready, Steady, Cook.

The female professionals do not only assist, and they can cover mistakes.

And so on.

~V~

06-12-2005

veri, i think you're great

molly1984

06-12-2005

Originally Posted by Veri:
“How does that mean we can't be wrong?

Anyway, I think Colin is worse than non-exciting. His American smooth was nauseating.

(That's the sort of opinion that "can't" be wong; the ones that say X or Y is a good or bad dancer can be wrong, despite being opinions.)”

A persons opinion cannot be wrong, it is an opinion... people are always going to see things differently but we're all entitled to have our say.

The best footballer in the country, the best singer in x factor, the best dancer in SCD, all questions that have no right/wrong answer and can only be answered by an individuals opinion.

soap_a_holic

06-12-2005

Originally Posted by g.wass@ntlworld:
“Despite what the Judges say and in any case, nobody takes any notice anyway. If the voting public took any notice James should have gone not Patsy.
The judges are there purely for entertainment value even though they are experts at what they do and give sound advice.
Zoe should be next to go, she is the most technically imperfect despite all the flash . All that gap between them No way. Our old dance teacher would have stopped them dead in their tracks and taken them back to basics to get the correct hold and posture which should be maintained through out the dance. Bronze medal stuff.
Darren in my view is the best and has remained constant throughout and getting technically better. He is the only one that is dancing for the shear joy of it. No failing career to get back on track , no one to impress or beat,Just pure dancing pleasure. Is that what we all want to see. I think Lilia and Darren are the best thing that has hit our TV screens for years. They should go on tour promoting Ballroom dancing.
Private note for Bill ( watch this space )”

I think itz a disgrace that the judges don't bring up the gap on the live show. they over mark her faulty steps and she looks like she about to fall over when ian goes to twirl her. Zoe to go! Colin to win!

~V~

06-12-2005

Originally Posted by molly1984:
“A persons opinion cannot be wrong, it is an opinion... people are always going to see things differently but we're all entitled to have our say.

The best footballer in the country, the best singer in x factor, the best dancer in SCD, all questions that have no right/wrong answer and can only be answered by an individuals opinion.”

yes, but some people represent their opinions as fact, which is what veri was picking up on, i think

auntiejennieesb

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by g.wass@ntlworld:
“Darren in my view is the best and has remained constant throughout and getting technically better. He is the only one that is dancing for the shear joy of it. No failing career to get back on track , no one to impress or beat,Just pure dancing pleasure. Is that what we all want to see. I think Lilia and Darren are the best thing that has hit our TV screens for years. They should go on tour promoting Ballroom dancing.”

I agree that Darren and Lila should win Darren has done what all who love dancing hope the show will do, he has shown that a mans man who would have laughed in the face of anyone who told him he'd be doing this a year ago can really improve and develop a love got dancing. GO DARREN AND LILA!!!!

paulsanderson

07-12-2005

i think zoe is a good looking bird........... and only for that she should be in the last 3 couples......... james should be out next............

Veri

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by molly1984:
“A persons opinion cannot be wrong, it is an opinion...”

Opinions can be wrong, just as beliefs can be wrong.

I don't know where people have gotten the idea that opinions cannot be wrong.

If you look up "opinion", for example here, you'll find definitions like these:

A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof

Opinion is applicable to a judgment based on grounds insufficient to rule out the possibility of dispute

a belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge

a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty; ... the expression of a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof; "his opinions appeared frequently on the editorial page"

The point here is that opinions are beliefs that, because they're not backed by positive knowledge or proof, might be false.

We have to avoid confusing this with certain other issues, such as: whether "we're entitled to have our say" [yes, we are], whether some questions "have no right/wrong answer" [some opinions are about things like that, but other opinions aren't], and whether a judgment is subjective or objective.

Quote:
“people are always going to see things differently but we're all entitled to have our say. The best footballer in the country, the best singer in x factor, the best dancer in SCD, all questions that have no right/wrong answer and can only be answered by an individuals opinion.”

Questions such as who is the best dancer involve both subjective and objective factors; but it should be clear, for example, that some footballers, or dancers, or singers are so poor that they cannot be the best. Someone could still enjoy them the most or like them best, but they wouldn't be best, and any opinion that they were best would be wrong.

La Rhumba

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by Veri:
“Anyway, I think Colin is worse than non-exciting. His American smooth was nauseating.

(That's the sort of opinion that "can't" be wong; the ones that say X or Y is a good or bad dancer can be wrong, despite being opinions.)”

I think your view of Colin's Smooth is astounding!

Nauseating? Puh! It was uplifting!

thenetworkbabe

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by Indya:
“Wholeheartedly agree!!! The judges keep harping on about how good Zoe looks and Anton made an interesting comment some weeks ago. He highlighted the difference between LOOKING the best and BEING the best dancer. The judges are swayed by Ian and Zoe's height and slim build, but Zoe is quite some way below the standard of both Jill and Denise of last year's series and I would like to see Zoe voted off next Saturday, with James being voted off the following week, leaving Colin and Darren head-to-head, WITH DARREN TO WIN. He is an absolute pleasure to watch because he TRULY IS DANCING FOR SHEER PLEASURE and for that, plus his continued improvement, he deserves the crown! So don't stop voting for Darren, all you Darren and Lilia lovers out there.”

So your logic is that we should vote for the person who looks (and how on earth could you know from looks - I can't read minds so I doubt if you can) as if they are enjoying themselves and who has improved. By this logic you may as well vote for the next person with a gormless smile you meet in the street and dish out PhDs to any illiterate halfwit who manages to read the Sun.

Zoe and Colin are perfectionists who are trying to get it right. Its quite inevitable that they worry over failings wheras someone who is just there for a laugh and has little hope of being that good views every small success as a big one. Thats the nature of being good at something - you know when you could be better. Its silly to conclude from that though that perfectionists don't enjoy what they are doing though - they are just more self critical and, as they are used to success, less demonstrative when they achieve it.

The difference between looking and being the best isn't what you think it is either. You can be the best technically because you can move by numbers. Actually doing something artistic is far more difficult - you could train a chimp or robot to move correctly. If it looks good its probable that the minor technical errors are being compensated for by something else thats making the impression and thats preferable to the perfect routine that doesn't look good. The judges are talking a lot about technique but marking clearly reflects artistic quality too and in that respect Darren looks far less convincing than Colin and Colin is still looking more mechanical than Zoe.

g.wass@ntlworld

07-12-2005

If Zoe is a perfectionist then why is she still dancing with such a gap. That should have been corrected after dance one.
They are all determined to do trheir best just that some are having fun on the way and improving at the same time.

g.wass@ntlworld

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by Veri:
“No, Zoe has not been overmarked.

They are all being overmarked by professional standards, but if the judges didn't overmark them (in that sense of "overmark"), they'd all be getting quite low scores.

So instead, the judges (quite reasonably) are marking them by the standards that can be expected for this show, thus allowing themselves to use the full range of marks.
When you're better to start with, it's often harder to improve so much.

But I don't believe people are voting on the learning curves.

The (reality-show-voting) GBP dislikes slender, attractive, young (or young-ish) women.

They will always be at a disadvantage. (See I'm a Celebrity, Big Brother, etc.)

Ian quite rightly is not making a big deal of the "gap".”

Ian as a competition Ballroom dancer knows the ballroom hold is a must therefore should be correcting the problem. That is what the show is about. Sorry, but as a ballroom dancer I am not impressed. Our dance teacher always says A well performed BASIC dance is far better than a poorly performed dance with lots of intricate moves. Ask any dance teacher and they will say the same.

anton4eva

07-12-2005

Zoe has been consistently overmarked by some of the judges who didn't spot the gap between her and Ian each week. This fundamental and uncorrected fault would have been penalised in any of the other celebrities. James and Darren have been criticised for their neck and hands for weeks. Time for the judges to mind that gap.

Muggsy

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by Veri:
“Anyway, I think Colin is worse than non-exciting. His American smooth was nauseating.”

Well, sour grapes will make everybody feel sick.

Tissy

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by thenetworkbabe:
“it.
The judges are talking a lot about technique but marking clearly reflects artistic quality too and in that respect Darren looks far less convincing than Colin and Colin is still looking more mechanical than Zoe.”

Sounds a fair assessment.

If the judges are awarding higher marks for artistic quality than technical is that why they rate Zoe so highly?

Hil

07-12-2005

The last two in my opinion should be Colin and Zoe. Zoe is good, certainly not perfect and everyone has an off-week. She was in the bottom two which should give Ian a reality check.

Darren has come far but he isn't up to their standard IMO. He has the wrong build and he doesn't do it for me. However, I think he's in with a good chance due to his popularity with the public.

elizabethjo

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by Veri:
“Every thing you say in there is wrong.

In truth:

Zoe has not achieved the least.

People are not ignoring the different roles of male and female dangers. Not do they have have any difficulty understanding the difference.

You, on the other hand, do misunderstand the male/female roles which are not very like the chef and assistant in Ready, Steady, Cook.

The female professionals do not only assist, and they can cover mistakes.

And so on.”

Well said! If the quote you were answering is to be believed then the person who wrote it is of the opinion that the female professionals contribute little or nothing. Erin then is only and assistant in her partnership with Anton? Lilia contributes nothing to Darren.? Camilla and Ian? That can only have been written by a man!
Also the remark Anton made about being the best dancer and looking like the best dancer was meant to illustrate that although non of the routines in technically perfect then it can be made to look perfect by the way it is presented He himself is not the best dancer but he can look as if he is. He was not having a pop at Ian just the reverse. Anton and Ian are good friends, just as Camilla and Erin are, they all go out together.
I am a little tired of reading vitrilic comments about Zoe. Why people do it I cant think. She puts everything into it, she is supportive of the others and she has done a good job. James is by far the least able dancer and should have gone last week. He is only there because a lot of females fancy him! I like him but the fact is he is the weakest and should go.

musicangel

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by elizabethjo:
“I am a little tired of reading vitrilic comments about Zoe. Why people do it I cant think. She puts everything into it, she is supportive of the others and she has done a good job. James is by far the least able dancer and should have gone last week. He is only there because a lot of females fancy him! I like him but the fact is he is the weakest and should go.”

Hi EJ

I agree 100% with what you said!!

elizabethjo

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by g.wass@ntlworld:
“Ian as a competition Ballroom dancer knows the ballroom hold is a must therefore should be correcting the problem. That is what the show is about. Sorry, but as a ballroom dancer I am not impressed. Our dance teacher always says A well performed BASIC dance is far better than a poorly performed dance with lots of intricate moves. Ask any dance teacher and they will say the same.”

Ian is a champion Latin dancer, not a competition ballroom dancer though he is a brilliant teacher of both disciplines. I expect he knows the correct hold, Zoe knows about the gaps and I expect she is trying to correct them. But this is a competition with very limited training time. A good basic dance would not cut the mustard here. They tried that in the Cha cha. The judges have said their choreography was too hard and then it was not hard enough!
I dance with Ian and I have a struggle with the gaps most of the time in the ballroom due mostly to him being over 10inches taller than me. Zoe is taller than me I grant you but maybe she is finding it hard to overcome too. My problem mostly comes from his long legs. When he steps forward his leg pushes against my body and that has the effect of creating a gap and turning me ever so slightly off line. I am doing medals with another teacher who is shorter and that problem never arises. Doesnt alter the fact that Ian has created some really superb choreography and Zoe has managed to learn it! Well done Zoe !

musicangel

07-12-2005

hehe sorry its good to actually talk to someone who knows the man, and how he teaches!! I actually think they look great dancing! in the time frame!! and should stop getting slated for tinest reasons!!

g.wass@ntlworld

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by elizabethjo:
“Ian is a champion Latin dancer, not a competition ballroom dancer though he is a brilliant teacher of both disciplines. I expect he knows the correct hold, Zoe knows about the gaps and I expect she is trying to correct them. But this is a competition with very limited training time. A good basic dance would not cut the mustard here. They tried that in the Cha cha. The judges have said their choreography was too hard and then it was not hard enough!
I dance with Ian and I have a struggle with the gaps most of the time in the ballroom due mostly to him being over 10inches taller than me. Zoe is taller than me I grant you but maybe she is finding it hard to overcome too. My problem mostly comes from his long legs. When he steps forward his leg pushes against my body and that has the effect of creating a gap and turning me ever so slightly off line. I am doing medals with another teacher who is shorter and that problem never arises. Doesnt alter the fact that Ian has created some really superb choreography and Zoe has managed to learn it! Well done Zoe !”

I danced with a girl 10 inches shorter than me and never any gap. Matter of discipline
This argument will last forever I think

Dancing Queen

07-12-2005

Poor Zoe - she felt like shit last week with the flu and now everyone says she should go - give the girl a break - she done good

musicangel

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by Dancing Queen:
“Poor Zoe - she felt like shit last week with the flu and now everyone says she should go - give the girl a break - she done good ”

very well put!!!

Dancing Queen

07-12-2005

Originally Posted by musicangel:
“very well put!!!”

The GP are sooo fickle - voting her out into the last two just because a couple of steps went wrong

but she's hanging on in there and hope she feels a bit better this week

helene

07-12-2005

I don't think the public held back their votes because they thought that those few missed steps made her a "bottom two dancer". I think she was not popular because people felt she was getting too much goodwill from the judges so generally it made them feel negative towards her. Which clearly is not her fault.
In my view gap or not she is far better than James so I really hope he does not go through to the final at Zoe's expense.

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