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Tesco Credit Card Petrol Pumps - Security Flaw?


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Old 17-12-2005, 13:05
Lloydje
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I've been thinking about this for a while now, Tesco petrol stations everywhere seem to all have these "pay at pump" pumps where you can pay direct with your credit/debit card.

Well, arnt these a major security problem? There is absolutely no chip and pin or any other security check they make, all you have to do is put a card in, fill up, then put it in again to get a reciept!

Whats stopping people stealing cards, and just using these pumps, especially with petrol seen as an expensive thing these days... surely it wouldn't be too hard to put a key pad on the machines to put in your pin number?
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Old 17-12-2005, 13:07
CHUTNEY
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It's the same at their 'self service' checkouts too. I can't believe that a company as greedy as Tesco would do anything that threatened getting the cash!
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Old 17-12-2005, 13:08
Misanthrope
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They do have forecourt cameras though.
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Old 17-12-2005, 13:10
Lloydje
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Originally Posted by Misanthrope
They do have forecourt cameras though.
Stolen car, fake number plate... not really a deterant to someone whos willing to steal a credit card in the 1st place
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Old 17-12-2005, 13:15
Misanthrope
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Most people indulging in this kind of theft are known to the local police, I would imagine though.

It's not a bad idea to have the keypads on the machines, though standing behind people in shops it's fairly trivial to get someones PIN.
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Old 17-12-2005, 13:24
Swipe
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Originally Posted by Lloydje
Stolen car, fake number plate... not really a deterant to someone whos willing to steal a credit card in the 1st place
I would have thought filling up stolen cars would not be that common. I'd be more inclined for joyriders to steal cars with more than a half full tank. If they did happen to be stupid enough to fill up a stolen car with a stolen credit card, unless they get plastic surgery or wore a balaclava to fill up in, they'd be easily recognised from forecourt camera footage. All that's left then is to offer a 50 reward to anonymously identify the crook from their photo in the local rag.

It seems to me like a hell of a lot of trouble to go to to pull off a dodgy transaction at a self-pay petrol pump. Wouldn't it be easier to do a drive off instead?

Incidentally, I was in my local petrol station they other day and I happened to notice a clipboard close to the cashier's desk labelled 'Drive Offs' which had a list (at least ten) of registration numbers on it. So maybe drive offs are fairly common. Would any resident petrol forecourt attendants care to comment?
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Old 17-12-2005, 13:25
Astaroth
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Because they dont have security then they are the ones that are liable for any monies transacted by fraud. I guess it is a case of balancing people coming because of the speed/ convenience factor and the potential increase in fraud.

I would also query that if someone has gone to the extent of stealing a car, putting a fake plate on it and then actually bother to pay with a stolen card rather than just driving off.

Saying that though when I did work for Tesco the police called as they had found a stolen vehicle where the theif had filled it up with petrol and used their own club card and left the receipt in the car so I guess is everything is possible
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Old 17-12-2005, 13:39
makavelianz
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Originally Posted by Lloydje
Stolen car, fake number plate... not really a deterant to someone whos willing to steal a credit card in the 1st place
if you have a stolen car or number plates why would you need a credit card you would just drive off without paying ..
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Old 17-12-2005, 15:21
Lloydje
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Originally Posted by makavelianz
if you have a stolen car or number plates why would you need a credit card you would just drive off without paying ..
Good point
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Old 17-12-2005, 15:39
Bossyboots
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Originally Posted by makavelianz
if you have a stolen car or number plates why would you need a credit card you would just drive off without paying ..

Our local Tesco have a security guard patrolling the petrol station making drive offs more difficult.

They have also taken to displaying a list of car registration numbers of those that have managed a drive off from the week before
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Old 17-12-2005, 16:11
makavelianz
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Originally Posted by Bossyboots
Our local Tesco have a security guard patrolling the petrol station making drive offs more difficult.

They have also taken to displaying a list of car registration numbers of those that have managed a drive off from the week before
Secuirty guards are useless, they wont come in front of your car only thing they will try to do is try to open the driver side door.. if you lock that soon as you jump in..their nothing else they can do..other than bang their fist at the window
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Old 17-12-2005, 21:35
Flying Burrito
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The simple answer is, don't bloody well use supermarkets for anything.

When all you worshippers of mamon come to realise that Tesco/Asda/Sainsbury/Morrisons do not hold the secret to our civilisation. Then you may come to realise that we have the solution in our hands.

Until then, I hope every one of you is subject to fraud and robbery.
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Old 17-12-2005, 21:51
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Originally Posted by Lloydje
Stolen car, fake number plate... not really a deterant to someone whos willing to steal a credit card in the 1st place
Automatic numberplate recognition now allows vehicles to be tracked all over the country using a variety of cameras (on-board police cars, mobile units, town centre CCTV etc). I should guess you would need a new set of plates every time, in order to stand a chance of getting away with it long term.
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Old 17-12-2005, 22:12
jaybee24uk
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Are the pin codes stored on the chip on the card?

I only ask as our card machine at work asks for the pin 99% of the time, but it doesn't dial out as many time it asks for pin numbers.

I only ask this as pin numbers are suppose to be safe, but if they are stored on the card, maybe the crooks could access them and they are no safer than cards with no chips on them.
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Old 17-12-2005, 23:17
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Originally Posted by Flying Burrito
The simple answer is, don't bloody well use supermarkets for anything.

When all you worshippers of mamon come to realise that Tesco/Asda/Sainsbury/Morrisons do not hold the secret to our civilisation. Then you may come to realise that we have the solution in our hands.

Until then, I hope every one of you is subject to fraud and robbery.
Well TBH where I live, there are NO independent food shops. Perhaps the occasional 7/11 with tiny floorspace. So it's convenient and essential to use the supermarket. I LOVE the pay at pump petrol lane, because it's quick and simple. No angry cashiers to deal with, and usually no queue, because people in my town seem to like doing things the long way.
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Old 17-12-2005, 23:32
kinky_kavuk
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Tesco aren't the only place where you can pay with your card and not have to sign or do chip and pin. If you use the automated ticket machines for tube trains in London then you don't have to do security.
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Old 18-12-2005, 01:15
clockworks999
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Originally Posted by jaybee24uk
Are the pin codes stored on the chip on the card?

I only ask as our card machine at work asks for the pin 99% of the time, but it doesn't dial out as many time it asks for pin numbers.

I only ask this as pin numbers are suppose to be safe, but if they are stored on the card, maybe the crooks could access them and they are no safer than cards with no chips on them.
The PIN is held on the card, but it's encrypted. Criminals will eventually crack the encryption, but it's reasonably secure. Much easier to get the PIN by watching someone use the card/PIN, then steal the card.

The real security of chip&PIN is that it is very difficult to make a duplicate card. Magnetic stripe cards are very easy to skim and copy. You can put someone else's details on your stripe card, sign with your signature, but the other person gets the bill!

Most payment terminals will only "dial out" when a pre-set floor limit is exceeded. Small payments will not need external authorisation.
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Old 18-12-2005, 09:13
tonygore
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From February 14th 2006 all card payments must use Chip&Pin see: www.chipandpin.co.uk

The ASDA in St Helens Town Centre is Pay-by-Card Only. You put your card in first, then it told me I could have a maximum of 65 of petrol. There is no chip and pin but it does offer you a full receipt. I do like the convenience too as most Petrol Stations now operate a pay for fuel first policy anyway.
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Old 18-12-2005, 09:40
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So if you purchase goods, and then find the chip and pin machine broken, what do you do? Put the goods back? Dump your goods and walk off? Have security ecsort you to a cash machine at the company's expense? What if it's petrol, do they impound your car until you can give them cash?
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Old 18-12-2005, 09:49
Swipe
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On a number of occasions some shops' pin chip card readers have had problems reading my card and they've had to resort to swipe and sign as backup. I hope that doesn't happen again after 14th Feb, especially if there's a big queue behind me.
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Old 18-12-2005, 12:48
Astaroth
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After the 14th you will still be able to swipe and sign but then the shop is liable for losses of fraud rather than the card issuer. There are some people who cannot use the pin option due to disabilities and so they will not have chip & pin cards and this is the problem. At the moment the people who are making clone cards are setting the "chip" to say that it isnt a chip and pin card so that they just have to fake the signiture rather than have the issues of dealing with a pin. However as to what will happen if they cant read your card for what ever reason - I guess that is a stores decision - let you buy the goods and run the risk of losing the money if it is fraud or turn away a customer (and potentially lose them for good)

I dont know about the central london train/tube stations but out here on the edges of london they have now put chip and pin in all our train stations including the automated machines.
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Old 18-12-2005, 14:36
kinky_kavuk
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Well i have seen it in central london stations, and i know for a fact that they have it without chip and pin at southgate underground.

I didn't think the card actually held the pin. I believed it was held on the banks computer system. So when you go to withdraw from a cash machine it uses the link network to connect to your bank's server to verify your pin. So when your bank's network crashes *cough* Natwest *cough* you can't use any cash machines or pay by card, just like what happened 2 weeks ago.
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Old 18-12-2005, 15:34
leeroybrownfors
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Originally Posted by tonygore
The ASDA in St Helens Town Centre is Pay-by-Card Only. You put your card in first, then it told me I could have a maximum of 65 of petrol. There is no chip and pin but it does offer you a full receipt. I do like the convenience too as most Petrol Stations now operate a pay for fuel first policy anyway.
I've noticed the bit that tells you how much you have to spend. I went once, and knew I had only 20 available in my account, yet it said 55 available to spend. This wouldn't happen if you paid normally by card. Does this mean that the pump doesn't contact your bank at all for quite a while after you've purchased the fuel?

I know that sometimes when you pay by card it can take a day or two for the money to come from your account, but the money is "earmarked" for that transaction - meaning that when your card is swiped/whatever, a check is done to see you have the money available.
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Old 18-12-2005, 16:12
top banana
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Originally Posted by tonygore
From February 14th 2006 all card payments must use Chip&Pin see: www.chipandpin.co.uk

The ASDA in St Helens Town Centre is Pay-by-Card Only. You put your card in first, then it told me I could have a maximum of 65 of petrol. There is no chip and pin but it does offer you a full receipt. I do like the convenience too as most Petrol Stations now operate a pay for fuel first policy anyway.

Our local Tesco in Slough, Berkshire now ONLY accepts chip and pin cards. They have done this since 05 December. If you forgot your pin number Tough luck -- no shopping.

Also their 'fastcard' pay at pumps have been out of order since this time. You can only pay in kiosk now.

They have signs all over the place stating ' no pin - no shopping'
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Old 19-12-2005, 00:22
Channel Hopper
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Originally Posted by Misanthrope
It's not a bad idea to have the keypads on the machines, though standing behind people in shops it's fairly trivial to get someones PIN.
Ive found that its a bit of a bother to answer to matey at security when you have displaced the nose of some chav memorising your four pin card number.

Not for long though.
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