does this mean (in some form) the ability to show widescreen images in a 4:3 screen?

No. It is one of several ways of decoding and carrying a video signal from A to B. Others are: Composite; S-Video; YUV and Component.

OK, I have a 4:3 TV screen.

I had a philips dvdr70 DVD recorder, and through this it inputted and outputed images in 6:19 widescreen as I want it to. (ie I would get a black strip at the top and bottom of my tv screen.

Now I have a new philips 3305 DVD recorder and its basically refusing to show widescreen at all. Im getting a widescreen image shaped in a 4:3 screen. Yuck!

Im wondering if this has anything to do with RGB Output ability as this new dvd recorder doesnt have it.

There should be a setting on the DVD recorder to tell it what kind of TV it is connected to: Either widescreen (16:9) or not (4:3). If you select 16:9 there may be additional settings to describe how you want 4:3 programmes displayed on the 16:9 screen.

As well as or instead of this you may need to select the correct aspect ratio on your TV.

The video signal type: RGB; S-Video or composite is irrelevant.

nah, ive already tried that, and whatever setting I select on the dvd recorder it just ignores it.
Im going to swap this for a DVD recorder that does have RGB output ability, see what happens.

A lot of DVD recorders record widescreen programmes OK but don't set the widescreen flag correctly on the recorded discs.

This means that.....

1)for playback on a widescreen TV you would have to switch the TV manually to widescreen.
2) for viewing on an older 4:3 TV there is no way to get a correctly letterboxed display.(which appears to be your problem).


Do commercial anamorphic widescreen DVDs play back properly?

yes proper commercial dvd's play back as intended.

Yes your right my problem is as you say.
Also though, even whilst im recording, any input (sky, freeview etc) wont display in widescreen through the recorder, but does direct to the tv.

I swapped this phllips dvd recorder for a packard bell one with a hard drive, and I still have the same problem.

I guess my solution will be to just get a proper widescreen TV to eliminate this issue once and for all.

I'm sorry to say the problem you describe will not be fixed by changing your TV. It is caused by your recorder not sending a widescreen switching signal to your TV. This will affect a new widescreen TV just as much.

my recorder (as it seems many recorders also) is only sending a widescreen image to the TV (it wont send a 4:3 image), so in what way will this not be fixed with a widescreen TV?!

i'm not sure why 'intermediate devices' feel the need to involve themselves in aspect ratios anyhow - instead of passing the signal 'as is' and just let the TV take care of it

what with ratio switch on the digibox, ratio switch on the recorder and ratio switch on the TV it's a miracle anything looks as it should

Well its always difficult to say from descriptions of widescreen problems but from what you are saying the issue is this:

Your player is sending an anamorphic widescreen picture to your TV without the widescreen switching signal. It is doing this because it thinks the picture is a normal 4:3 picture and that is because it is not recording the switching signal that is broadcast. This is common, but not universal (my Philips HDRW720 deals just fine with the widescreen issue).

Even a widescreen TV needs the switching signal so it can deal with 4:3 broadcasts differently to widescreen ones (unless you only watch widescreen programmes - just about impossible right now). So, when you have a widescreen TV, if you leave your TV in "auto switching" mode (the actual name used depends on the TV manufactuer) the TV will default to whatever mode you choose for 4:3 pictures. This means you will either have a 4:3 "long/thin" picture in the middle of a widescreen TV, or the picture is "smart stretched" to fill the screen, as though you were dealing with a 4:3 broadcast, when in fact all you want to do is horizontally stretch the picture to fill the widescreen TV. These are not the same thing. If you simply stretch a 4:3 broadcast you end up with very fat people.

The only alternative is to force your TV to always display in widescreen mode, but then all the 4:3 programmes you record will display wrongly and you will need to manually adjust those using your TV remote in the same way you could now with your widescreen broadcasts.

The only proper solution is to buy a DVD or HDD recorder that handles widescreen better.
Last edited by jong : 02-02-2006 at 23:37

The problem is that DVD recorders and HDD recorders both encode the TV picture as MPEG2, this compression inevitably loses the detail in the first few scan lines (near where teletext is stored) where the widescreen switching info is broadcast. In fact the DVD standard for PAL has only 575 lines vs 625 in the broadcast signal, so these lines are normally cropped completely. So these machines need to separately store the widescreen signal digitally, if they are to do anything with it.

The problem is that the DVD-video standard (needed if you wish to move a home recorded DVD onto an old DVD player) only allows one aspect ratio per "titleset", which depending on the recorder can mean per disc, or per recording. Yet, broadcasts can switch aspect ratio all the time eg. from one programme to the next, from programme to ads and from one ad to the next. There is no way of achieving this and conforming to the DVD-video standard.

Some choose just to ignore the issue, leave the switching signal off and leave it to the user to manually change aspect ratio.

Some record the switching signal in a non-standard way, that works on the recorder that recorded it, but has the same problem as the others when you try to play on a normal DVD player. This is what the Philips HDRW720 does.

Some, which put each recording into its own titleset, are able to make a guess at the aspect ratio of the main programme (not that easy if the recording starts in the middle of a 4:3 ad and then goes into a widescreen programme), and set the aspect ratio to that, in the standard DVD fashion. But even that is not perfect as the aspect ratio will be wrong during any bits of a recording that are different (eg. ads) and it may not guess right.

Oh it suddenly occured to me there is one other possibility. Are you 100% sure that the scart between your digital STB and the DVD/HDD recorder is fully wired? It may be worth checking. On UK digital platforms, the widescreen switching pin on the scart will normally be the one telling your DVD/HDD recorder the right aspect ratio. If it isn't seeing this it will not be able to record it, even if it is capable of doing so.

I would try taking the cable that connects your STB to your recorder and use it to connect your recorder to your TV, then play a widescreen DVD and see if the TV switches. If it doesn't you know that scart is not up to the job. Probably a long shot, but cheap scarts supplied with STBs are not very good.

But my TV (like most) has dozens of view modes - i can watch it upside down or back to front if i want - ergo - any intermediate devices dont have to get involved (my TV doesn't care whether it's includes widescreen switch or not - which is just as well) - i'll watch any type of signal, any, which way i want

The point I was making is that if they want to write a DVD-video compliant disc they have no choice but to "get involved". Broadcast TV can change aspect ratio at any time, but the DVD-video standard does not allow this. So they either have to miss the broadcast flag off completely (as Gareth's seems to) or come up with other solutions, none of which are perfect.

Of course, all HDD recorders could mimic the broadcast flag perfectly and only compromise when writing to DVD, but many appear not to.

Note: As long as the player is set to "widescreen" playback it will not be messing about with the picture at all - even in Gareth's case it is sending to the TV exactly (MPEG2 encoding allowing) what it received. We are just discussing whether the player is able to tell the TV what the original aspect ratio was so the TV can then display this according to the owner's pre-defined wishes. E.g. For widescreen TVs, whether they want 4:3 programmes displayed in a 4:3 box or if they want it stretched to fit the screen. For 4:3 TVs whether they want widescreen broadcasts cropped to fit, or displayed 'letterboxed'.

What you want is the recorder to consistently send the anamorphic recording as a letterboxed 16:9 output to the TV. Then it doesn't matter whether you have a 4:3 or a widescreen display at the end of it.

Unfortunately the DVD recorder settings can sometimes be over-ridden by the instructions in the DVD IFO file. Even if the recorder is set to output a letterboxed 16:9 image, there is a flag in the IFO file which, if inadvertently set, will inhibit this and send a 16:9 picture to a 4:3 screen without compensation for the aspect ratio change.

I remember helping Loobster out some time ago with a similar problem in this thread on AV Forums. The problem can be corrected at the most basic level by editing the IFO file byte at &200 using WinHex, or with IFOedit in a nice GUI, or by another contributor who has written a .NET application to patch the IFO file automatically. I haven't tried this latter option though.

You are right there are ifo settings that can force a particular presentation, regardless of DVD recorder settings - if the DVD recorder respects them - some do some don't.

But I don't agree with the idea you should stick with 16:9 letterbox even with a widescreen TV. This forces the TV to zoom about 430 lines of actual picture (the bit inside the letterbox) to fill the 575 visible lines on the screen. The whole benefit of anamorphic widescreen is lost. If you use 'widescreen mode' the TV can use the full 575 lines of visible anamorphic picture and just stretch it horizontally. A MUCH better result.

If you have a widescreen TV always use widescreen mode on your player, no question.

If you have a 4:3 TV which can itself interpret the widescreen switching signal and 'letterbox' widescreen broadcasts you need to experiment. Some DVD players do a better job at letterboxing and it is best to put the player in 'letterbox mode', some TVs do a better job and it is best to use 'widescreen mode' and let the TV do the processing.

However, none of this helps if, as in Gareth's case the recorder is not remembering what the original aspect ratio was. As it isn't smart enough to be able to spot that people 'look a bit thin' in widescreen broadcasts and it has lost the original widescreen switching signal, it thinks the broadcast is in 4:3 aspect ratio and will ignore any preferences you set for widescreen.

Jon, I don't think that's right. A purely letterboxed 16:9 anamorphic picture displays quite normally on a widescreen TV; there's no 'zooming' involved (unless there's a zoom mode inadvertently set on the TV controls). I've never had any trouble getting the full resolution. Further reference from the Wikipedia:

"In Europe, letterboxing has long been the standard for showing widescreen theatrical movies on TV, partially because the PAL TV system with its higher resolution does not degrade letterboxed images as much as the American NTSC system. Together with the advance of digital broadcasting, which allows widescreen, 1.78:1 (or 16:9) transmissions without loss of resolution, 1.78:1 widescreen television is now slowly becoming common on European television for made-for-TV materials. Although this is not true high-definition TV, it does use the same aspect ratio. The majority of programming in countries like Britain and France is now made in letterbox format; in Germany most made-for-TV programming is still broadcast in 1.33:1 and full screen.

Of course, on a true widescreen television set a 1.78:1 picture is no longer letterboxed since it fills the entire screen. However, movies made in even wider aspect ratios, such as 2.39:1 (or 2.35:1 based on old convention), are letterboxed to some extent even on 1.78:1 television sets, but with thinner black bars."


But his recorder does think it's in widescreen, it's just not letterboxing it for a 4:3 display. My point is that there are two competing sets of instructions: one on the DVD recording and one in the recorder itself. The DVD recording appears to be the dominant effect, and gives the 16:9 output but prohibits the letterboxing (see the byte designations in the earlier reference I gave). It's almost the same problem as encountered by Loob a while ago, albeit with a different recorder (the 4Kus).

It seems to me that we need to get 'GarethMoore1979' to have a look at the IFO file of his problematic Philips recordings.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are suggesting. I read your first reply to suggest even for widescreen TVs people should set their recorder/player to "letterbox mode", rather than "Widescreen/16:9 mode". If so, this is wrong.

If you switch the player into letterbox mode the player turns an anamorphic widescreen broadcast in full 575 line resolution into a conventional 4:3 aspect ratio broadcast with 430 lines of resolution (the rest of the lines are taken up with the black bars). Since on a widescreen TV you want 575 lines of resolution the TV has to interpolate 575 lines from the 430 lines sent by the recorder. This is clearly not as good as simply sending the 575 lines of detail that are available in the original anamorphic broadcast. This is exactly why we have anamorphic "widescreen" broadcasts and why they are considered better than the old analogue method of transmitting a letterboxed movie.

The Wikipedia definition may be confusing. The reference to "letterboxing" in the first line means the old analogue method of transmitting as a 4:3 picture with the black bars inserted. The reference to "the advance of digital broadcasting, which allows widescreen, 1.78:1 (or 16:9) transmissions without loss of resolution" means the ability to send an anamorphic widescreen signal to your TV. This benefit of digital is precisely what you lose when you put your player into "letterbox mode", which mimics the old analogue way of showing a 16:9 movie. The reference to "The majority of programming in countries like Britain and France is now made in letterbox format" is confusing and just means the majority is filmed in 16:9 ratio rather than 4:3. This is totally different to "letterboxing" as done by by a DVD player.

Assuming Gareth was being accurate when he said that he got the same result whatever mode he put his player into and assuming his 4:3 TV is capable of letterboxing an anamorphic input with the right WSS, as he says it can, Gareth's box does NOT think it has a widescreen broadcast. It thinks it has a normal 4:3 broadcast. That is why it is sending the anamorphic widescreen picture to the TV (tall and thin) but without the widescreen switching signal to tell the TV to squash it vertically (on his 4:3 TV, the TV would stretch horizontally on a widescreen set). If he told the player to letterbox widescreen broadcasts it would in fact send exactly the same picture to the TV as it does not realise it is widescreen. In fact, he says this is exactly what it does.

If the problem was the ifo "prohibit letterbox" flag then Gareth would see a different result whether he set is recorder/player to widescreen or letterboxed mode. He says he gets the same result in all modes. This proves (I am pretty sure!) the problem is a complete absence of the 16:9 flag. It's also very unlikey when he is playing back on the same machine that did the recording and even affects live broadcasts when the machine is recording.

You are right the problem can be fixed by manually manipulating the ifo files on an archived DVD (in this case by setting the 16:9 flag).

But this does not solve the problem that even programmes on the HDD are being displayed in the wrong aspect ratio and is generally a pain for day to day operation. Much better to get a recorder that handles things differently (like the HDRW720 or many/most -R/RW recorders, then depending on which of the other methods are used you either have complete portability (but the wrong aspect ratio during ads etc.), little or no portability (eg. -RW VR mode) but good widescreen switching, or (as in the case of the HDRW720) perfect widescreen switching on the HDRW, but with a need to edit ifos on a PC if you want widescreen switching to work on a disc you intend to play on a 'normal' DVD player.

God how a wish this wasn't all so confusing! Roll on HDTV!
Last edited by jong : 04-02-2006 at 00:52

i had similar problem on Fusion 200 - although it was set to 16:9 - some channels showed as 16:9 picture 'squished' vertically into a 4:3 box - it's a documented bug awaiting a fix - but i switched the machine to 4:3 (someone suggested it - totally counter intuative) and everything works fine now (TV sorts it out) - go figure

Sorry to leave in the middle of the discussion...


I think I have been under a misapprehension, actually, and a bit of reading confirms that you're right about the letterboxing and the lost scan-line detail. Goodness knows where I thought the resolution would come from .


Indeed. I'm getting a bit old for this!

I see we haven't heard back from the OP (since we took over his thread)...

No worries Musukebba! See ya soon in another thread.