Hi
I have a 710 which is still under warranty and I've noticed a problem with the HDD recordings from time to time. The picture seems to move out of alignment on some recordings, it's noticeasbl mainly but not limited to faces, where they distort in what I can only describe as a rubbery movement before setting back into alignment. It's as if they move momentarily and then re align. It was happening only occasionaly but I watched a film that I'd recorded some months ago last night and it was very bad. This is the second 710 I've had the first wasn't working out of the box! I've been singing the praises of this recorder to everyone and I've been very happy with it but this problem is unacceptable.

Would appreciate any comments, hopefully helpful ones!

Best

Chris

not sure if this is what is causing your probem but certainly I get pixalation and blockiness some nights that seems to be aligned with the good weather - maybe you are also getting some interference..... Roll on the day when they shut down analogue and we get full strength digital transmission..

Thanks for the repy, there doesn't seem to be any blockiness or pixellation only this instability. All off air TV is fine it's only when watching a recording on the HDD that the problem is apparent. Last nights movie was the worst example yet and at times I would have preffed to watch a VHS recording and I never thought I'd say that!

Chris

Hello Chris,

I have a 910 which is a very similar machine (larger HDD and HDMI output) and have noticed the same problem. However it is not on all channels. I have noticed this effect when watching via HDMI or RGB scart (never bothered to connect analogue component, as I did not see the point). I would guess this problem is a by-product of low data rate channels and less than perfect "on the fly" encoding.

I have yet to see this rubber face effect on any BBC channels (even News 24, the Cinderella channel as far as data rate goes, excluding Parliament of course). The worst FreeView channels for me are five, E4 and More 4. I would guess this would also happen on ITV 2,3&4 but have almost never recorded anything from them. I would prefer to use E4 +1 as this is full resolution and higher data rate, but it is always hopelessly out of sync for me.

However absolute worst for this problem was Sky One (my Panasonic Sky receiver is connected RGB to I/P 3). Rubber faces everywhere on 24, this happened even if I set the recorder to HQ+ mode to minimise the effect of compound compression (HQ+ is the highest data rate possible, at around 10 Gb per hour). I cannot say if this (rubber face) effect was exhibited if I watched 24 live as I never tried this (too many adverts).

What channels are you trying to record? Also is E4 +1 out of sync for you or am I just unlucky?

Masteriser

Masteriser

Thanks so much for the reply, I was beginning to think we were imagining the problem, or that I had a faulty machine!

I'm not entirely sure which channels are affected, i'm pretty sure that all BBC channels are OK. the problem was very apparent on the film "28 Days Later" that I recorded in April and I'm sure it was a commercial station as I remember skipping through the ad's. I've now deleted it so cant check which one it was. I normally record in the stsndard HQ setting not the HQ+ mode. The 710 is connected via RGB scart to a Sony 23" Bravia freeview LCD TV. Not tried the component connections yet as I thought there wouldn't be much improvement on such a small screen, but maybe I'm wrong there?

I watch very little live TV, preferring to record what I want to HDD, so can't really comment on the performance off air other than BBC etc which are all very good. Haven't watched E4+1 is that available on freeview? If it is i'll check it out and get back to you.

So the conclusion is that it's the transmission rather than the recorder. I'll make a note of what channels it's apparent on and get back to you.

Many thanks again.

Chris

Masteriser

E4+1 looks fine to me there's no apparent synch problem visible. So why does this channel have better resolution than E4 itself and how does it differ from E4?

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for checking out E4 +1 for me. I guess I have a problem with my 910. I may try a re-scan.

Regarding picture quality, it is all down to capacity. When E4 launched on FreeView there was not the space within the ITV / C4 multiplex to run it at full resoultion. So a reduced quality was used (in fact all the channels on that multiplex are at reduced resolution except for ITV1 & C4, which, I believe ofcom insist have to be at full res). Later on, some space on another multiplex became available, C4 bid for this and won. The newly acquired capacity was large enough to offer E4 +1 at full resolution, so this was done. There is a website somewhere which lists all the channels, their resolution and data rate. I will post it here if I can recall / find it.

In an ideal world it would be best if E4 was full res. and E4 +1 reduced, but to swith these around would require everyone to rescan their digiboxes, so it will not happen any time soon.

Up until May, More 4 +1 was broadcast in full resolution (More 4, like E4 is reduced on FreeView). However this was closed to launch the Big Brother (yawn) live feed, and from Sunday the capacity will be used for Film 4. I would say a film channel is a good use of this capacity (certainly better than a +1 channel).

I would speculate that at some future point, E4 +1 will too close in favour of a new C4 branded channel (perhaps 4 Documentary).

Finally, If I were you, I would try connecting your 710 to your Bravia via the component output. Does the 710 have the ability to send a progressive picture? I am at work so cannot check the manual to see (the 710 & 910 share the same 123! page maunal). If you are good with a soldering iron, you can make up your own component leads. You just need some good co-ax (Digital TV or Satellite) cable (such as CT 100 or WF 100) and don't forget to make sure the phono plugs can accept cable that thick (Maplins sell plugs that do the job).

Good luck,

Masteriser

Ok found the data rate and resolution site. FYI it is here:

http://www.aums30.dsl.pipex.com/home.htm

E4 is 544 x 576, where 544 is the number of pixels across the image and 576 is the number of horizontal lines (all UK SD TV is 576 lines, the remaining 49 are used for sync and teletext on analogue and other stuff like that).

However E4 +1 is 720 x 576. Either 720 or 704 pixels are considered to be 'full resoultion' so you can see there is quite a lot more picture information on E4 +1. If you are recording anything and the replay time is not an issue (ie you are not watching in chase play to skip the adverts) I would recommend recording from E4 +1, the picture is noticeably better. I would do this myself, but as I said in a previous post it is always way out of sync for me (the audio lags behind the pictures).

Out of interest what mode are you recording in when you see these effects? (SP, XP etc.)

Are you sure you have a good (low error rate) signal?

Masteriser

Thanks again for the info, the 710 does indeed have progressive scan so I should get around to trying the componet leads. I noticed that JVC produce a set at £9 or so, which although won;t be top quality would at least give me the opportunity to try the comp signal. I'll need a set of audio leads as well I think. I currently use a QED RGB lead which was about £40. Interesting that the Top-Up TV channels are lower resolution, particularly TCM which I wopuld have thought should have been full resolution? Maybe as they are showing manily older or "classic" films the lower resolution is OK? I've not yet seen Big Brother...honestly..other than a few clips and cannot imagine ever wishing to see more!

xmb

I usually record at HQ mode to HDD but occasionally at SP, can't remember what I was using whem I recorded "28 Dyas Later" as I wiped it, I'll keep a note of what I record at and when the problem re occurs I'll post the info.
The signal meter on the TV/710 shows maximum, not sure if that is in any way accurate or only an approximation, how do you check other than that?

If it wasn't for the good people on forums such as this who are knowledgeable I really don't know what we'd do. The thought of having to contact Sony for advice is not in any way appealing!

Thanks to all for their help, I'm getting there...................very slowly!

Best

Chris

XMB,

For your information I get 100% signal strength an all multiplexes and (more importantly) 100% signal quality on all except ITV/C4 which is 90%.

I usually record programmes I wish to time shift in HSP mode which I found to be indestinguishable from live TV on my display (which is connected by HDMI). Occasionally I will record in HQ+ mode which is the highest quality available. I used this to record 24 from Sky One to limit the effects of compound compression (SD Sky One being compressed enough as it is), though frankly it still looked pretty awful.

I also recorded The Marriage Of Figaro (from ROH Convent Garden) on BBC2 in HQ+ as the audio is linear and not Dolby Digital (again this was to limit compound compresion artifacts from the MPEG 2 audio on FreeView).

Frankly I have only ever seen the 'rubber faces' effect on commercial channels (with 24 from Sky being the worst). Incedently, this evening, I finally got around to watching 'Being John Malkovich' which I recorded form More 4+1 (prior to it's closure) in May. Though not as bad as 24, the rubber face effect was evident. I guess this does not bode well for Film 4.

Finally Chris, please let us know how you get on with your component connection, I hope it improves things for you.

Masteriser

Not tried this myself but have you played with the video settings during playback?

(Press TOOLS during playback and select Video Settings.)

Maybe a change to the BNR or MNR settings will improve things when playing back a poor quality signal?

If the problem is a type of smearing which is mostly noticeable on faces, you may be able to cure it by switching off the digital noise reduction on recording.
Please note that it is in the RECORDING settings that you will find this. In their reviews of Sony DVD recorders (and others) "What Video" magazine quite often recommend turning off the DNR on digital reception.
It worked for me on my Sony HX510.
Incidentally, I watched "28 Days Later" live some months ago and it showed this rubbery effect, so sometimes it can be the fault of the broadcast.

Hello Foglu & XMB,

As far as I am aware the noise reduction is all off (I find this makes everything too soft for me). However I must confess I was not aware that there is another DNR algorithm in the record path. I will check this out later today and report back here. Thanks for the tip.

Masteriser

This is a compression artifact of MPEG and similar interframe compression methods used to reduce data rates. It is most noticable on talking heads, but is applied to all movement.
If part of a face isn't moving much (outlines, foreheads, cheeks) MPEG freezes the motion in those areas by duplicating that part of the image from previous frames. Parts moving a lot, like eyes, mouth, etc., have more movement and so are "refreshed" more frequently or in every frame. So you're seeing a mix of full realtime motion blended with variable slow-motion. This varies with the level of interframe compression used to reduce digital data transmission and storage size. That varies with the compression levels used by the source to squeeze more content into a small "pipe" and by the recorder's settings for recording capacity.

Really creepy-looking, ain't it?
Last edited by gutenko : 17-01-2009 at 19:19