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Vodafone changing contract terms. (merged)
Zog
21-07-2006
Just received a text from V/fone informing me that MMS messages will now longer be part of my bundle. They used to charge 3 SMS for sending an MMS. This was deducted from my 250 SMS bundle. It was ideal.

Can they amend this mid contract... It was part of the attraction of the deal for me?...... I'm sure the answer for this will be yes.
dawson
21-07-2006
They can amend it, but you may have recourse to terminate the contract if you so wish without penalty, subject to them not reinstating the free MMS as part of bundle.

It all depends whether, by removing the bundled MMS, your costs increase above the amount stated in part 8a of their terms & conditions:

Quote:
“8) Ending of this Agreement

a) You may end this Agreement immediately by writing to us if:-

• we do not do what we have to do under this Agreement and do not put it right within 7 days of being asked in writing to do so;

• all of the Services are permanently no longer available to you;

• we increase the monthly (or other periodic line rental charge under clause 7a) and such increase (calculated as a percentage) is more than the increase in the Retail Prices Index Figure ("RPI", also calculated as a percentage) for the period from the month of the last increase (if any) to the month before we send the notice of the change in tariffs and you write to us before the increase takes effect. If we increase the monthly (or other periodic) line rental charge by more than the increase in the RPI we will tell you; or

• during the Term

i) we increase in the United Kingdom and under clause 7a, call or other usage charges which have the effect of increasing your call or other usage charges by more than 10% or the increase in RPI calculated as in 8a above (which ever is the greater) based upon your previous call or usage pattern;

ii) you write to us before the increase takes effect.”

Clause 7a for completeness:
Quote:
“7) Variation of Charges and Terms

a) We reserve the right to increase/decrease our charges from time to time and/or introduce new charges from time to time. If we increase/decrease our charges, we will give you at least 14 days' prior notice.”

Zog
21-07-2006
So as I understand it....

As my average monthly bill is £30, the increase can be 10% of this i.e. £3.

If MMS are now billed at 36p then I can cancel the contract if on average I have sent 9 or more MMS a month. As this would represent an increase of £3.24 in my monthly bill.

I am seriously p!ssed at this as I'm only 6 months in to an 18 month contract.

I will be shouting very loudly at somebody about this.
dawson
21-07-2006
Your intepretation is the same as mine

You need to call vodafone if you fall into that scenario and see what they say - either they will continue to give you the free MMS as part of your bundle or should allow you to end the contract without penalty. You may need to point the CS advisor to their term 8a, under which you are trying to end the contract without penalty.
sabreuk1975
22-07-2006
Hello,

I have had the same text message about the MMS' not being part of the bundle from 1st Septemer. I have called them to discuss this, I wanted to know if they will be giving something else in the other hand. In a nut shell I was told that I will have to pay 36p for each picture from 1st September.

Has anyone tried the get out clause in the terms and conditions?

Thanks
iDan
22-07-2006
i shall be trying this tomorrow.

I've about 4 months left on my 18 month contract.
Zog
23-07-2006
I'll be ringing them tomorrow.
Mr Cable
25-07-2006
Good Luck - Although you shouldn't need it. This is a poor show by Vodafone. It seems that more networks are now seeing the Cash opportunity provided by MMS.

First it was T-Mobile, conviently leaving out MMS from the admittedly generous allowance provided by their Flext Tariffs, now Voda.
GaryC
25-07-2006
The contract is not the whole story. Vodafone are also obliged to provide the offer AS ADVERTISED for the duration of the contact.

If they promoted MMS as part of a bundle, you are entitled to them for the life of the contract, which extends BEYOND the 18 month min term all companies have a ton of customers on legacy tariffs.

The price increase section only applies to charged items (like 10p per min calls etc) It does NOT apply to inclusive elements like bundled min entitlements, text messages, MMS etc. They have to be provided for the duration of the minimum contract you signed as part of the advertised offer you (in your case included as part of text bundle) ONLY THEN after 18 months can vodafone write to you proposing a change, and the cancellation clause come into effect.

Bottom line (sorry to take so long!) you are entitled to the inclusive MMS for at least the duration of the min contact, as they advertised that offer.

If they say no, ask for a supervisor, explain as above. If they insist, Ask them to provide a copy any promotional material which avertised the offer you took up (I guess you did not keep it!!) and prove that they had a disclaimer notice allowing them to change the offer at any time - the contact is not enough for them, it HAD to be on the offer T&C's as advertised on every piece of promotional material marketing that offer.
Adamuk
25-07-2006
Mr Cable, i thought MMS were included in flext tariffs?
flagpole
08-08-2006
So vodafone are changing their text bundles from the first of september so as not to include picture messages.

currently if you have a text bundle on contract, say 500 texts, you can use this for picture messaging too. one picture message counts as 3 texts so you could send say 10 picture messages and 470 texts in one month without chages.

from the 1st of september this will nolonger be the case.
http://vodafone.co.uk/picture
You will notice this affects existing customers

Personally i'm outraged that i can agree with them that they will supply me with a service for a price and then half way through the contract they can change this.

I spoke to customer services, they informed me it was tough and they could change what they liked, when they liked and if they wanted to they could remove all of my texts and there is nothing i can do.

1stly has anyone else had any luck complaining???

2ndly does anyone else agree that clause 8a of thier T&Cs would give me the right to cancel????
muffin789
08-08-2006
As I posted in response to your other post on this (voda cancellation thread), para 7a of your contract states that Voda can put their prices up at any point they want providing they have given you 14 days written notice of this.

Para 8a would only apply if they failed to do so, or their charges were put up more than a particular amount that involves some really long and complicated calculation using figures that I have no idea where you would go to find!

Ignorance or refusal to open the relevant letter, or being on holiday when it arrives, unfortuantely does not count.

Those of us that were on 3 at the time had problems like this towards the end of last year and tried to get out of things on a similar technicality - some of us managed to wriggle out of things by speaking to call centre staff who possibly weren't that well-versed in the policy. Loads of people didn't get away with it though.

muffin
flagpole
10-08-2006
I received another phone call from vod on this yesterday. despite being apologetic, it's clear that they will do nothing.

I would urge anyone affected by this to contact OfCom on 02079813040. It only takes a few minutes.

It might also be worth contacting trading standards via http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/ on 08454 04 05 06 as it's a contract, more than a telco's issue.

RYPW
10-08-2006
I thought it was part of the contract that networks can make changes like this at any time. :S
flagpole
10-08-2006
Originally Posted by ryanwilliams479:
“I thought it was part of the contract that networks can make changes like this at any time. :S”

Well it sort of is. but it's a bit more subtle than that.

The ofcom rules allow an increase of 10% in charges, but it's debateable as to what this means. probably only relates to minutes rather than any additonal options. However, any contract that unfairly favours the vendor is illegal.

You can't have a clause in a contract that says i'm allowed to changes the charges, T&Cs etc at anytime.

Which is why i say it's a traiding standards issue. ofcom only regulate your minutes, unless lots of people complain.

In terms of traiding standards, the contract simply has to be fair. you don't actually ahve to read all the small print. if they agree with you, over the phone or in person, to supply you with something then they have to.
RYPW
10-08-2006
Oh right. Thats why I acoid contract altogether.
flagpole
10-08-2006
ther is an article in el reg about this
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08...rice_increase/
dawson
10-08-2006
Originally Posted by flagpole:
“...The ofcom rules allow an increase of 10% in charges, but it's debateable as to what this means. probably only relates to minutes rather than any additonal options.”

See the term I highlighted in my earlier post - that doesn't restrict charges to just minutes in my opinion.

Other usage charges would mean the cost of MMS, but the 10% thing will apply to the whole bill, not just selected items.

Originally Posted by flagpole:
“ther is an article in el reg about this
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08...rice_increase/”

By the "see what can be arranged on a case-by-case basis" comment, I think Vodafone are well aware of their own terms and conditions and will consider any request. However if the calculation proves to be within their terms I think you are on a losing battle. (I don't think such terms will be declared unfair as suppliers are not expected to make a loss and a failure to keep their prices up with the change in RPI could well involve a loss)

If your own particular case does fall foul of their own terms and conditions, I expect they will either allow you to cancel without charge or just let you keep the inclusive MMS calls until the end of the minimum period - it will be their call. If they wanted to be really mean, I guess they could set your individual charges so that they fall just inside their own terms but the effort will probably cost more than the reward.
Last edited by dawson : 10-08-2006 at 16:53
flagpole
11-08-2006
Originally Posted by dawson:
“See the term I highlighted in my earlier post - that doesn't restrict charges to just minutes in my opinion.

Other usage charges would mean the cost of MMS, but the 10% thing will apply to the whole bill, not just selected items.

By the "see what can be arranged on a case-by-case basis" comment, I think Vodafone are well aware of their own terms and conditions and will consider any request. However if the calculation proves to be within their terms I think you are on a losing battle. (I don't think such terms will be declared unfair as suppliers are not expected to make a loss and a failure to keep their prices up with the change in RPI could well involve a loss)

If your own particular case does fall foul of their own terms and conditions, I expect they will either allow you to cancel without charge or just let you keep the inclusive MMS calls until the end of the minimum period - it will be their call. If they wanted to be really mean, I guess they could set your individual charges so that they fall just inside their own terms but the effort will probably cost more than the reward.”

I agree that the 10% clause doesn't just apply to minutes as i interpret it either.

But the problem is as OfCom view it it does. for example if vodafone had asked OfCom if they could increase thier charges by 9% and could also invest in the white slave trade OfCom would have aproved that too as it doesn't contraviene their rules.

But then you couldn't complain about that either because they just say that it is preaproved, if you follow.

I e-mailed the journo from El Reg saying the following....

Quote:
“Vodafone may have hinted that they are willing to be flexible over this but they
are infact not. I've spoken to them several times and all they can do is
apologise but say the decission has been made.

To clarify, this change affects existing contact customers as well as new ones.
many people will have signed up to an 18 month contract only last month on the
assumption that within their package they could send free MMS and find as of
next month they can not.

It seems the regulator have preapproved this change, despite it being of dubious
legality. Vodafone are allowed to increase their charges by up to 10% as in
their T&Cs. However this is enforced by the regulator only as it applies to
minutes.

Clearly for many people this will represent an increase in their chages by more
than 10% but the regulator don't care as it does not apply to the minutes.

I would give myself as an example: I pay £15pm for 200Xnet minutes and 500txts,
(would have been £30 but i used my own handset.)

My 500 txts can/could be used in any combination of text and MMS with an MMS
taking 3 texts off the allowance, for example i could send 50 MMS and 350
texts.

This will nolonger be the case and all picture messages will be charged at 36p,
if i were to send 5 MMS in a month, and i frequently did, then this would cost
me a further £1.80, more than 10% of my bill.

As far i was concerned in principle i have a contract with vodafone to supply me
with something for a fee and they are nolonger honouring that. I'd like to
cancel my contract. Apparently I can do that for the very reasonable price of
paying the remaining line rental for what is remaining of my 12 month contract.

I find this worrying as vodafone customer services, in the form of one 'Mike' -
account manager in cardiff has told me that they can do anything they like,
removing all my text messages if they wish and there is nothing i can do

I would be interested in how they would respond to a media organisation such as
yourselves if asked to justify this, or give examples of how flexible they have
been.

I would also welcome a responce from OfCom amd traiding standards as to how this
can be allowed to happen, particularly from the former as to how they felt it ok
to preapprove it.

details of other people's experiences can be found here
http://www.whatmobile.net/forum/view...er=asc&start=0
you'll note non of them have experienced any flexibility from vodafone.

regards nigel coldwell.”

I received the follwoing reply
Quote:
“Thanks for the feedback: you are right about Vodafone failing to demonstrate their
flexibility and it seems they are more interested in gathering comments and complaints to
help draw up their new packages, rather than helping anyone right now.

They are planning a new package in September, and every call they get now should improve
that, but as for being flexible immediately; it seems I was sold a line and will have to
be more careful in future; just not cynical enough yet.”

n
hob-goblin
11-08-2006
My bills seem to have been transfered from Carphone Warehouse direct to Vodafone now. Anyone else had this happen?
dawson
11-08-2006
Originally Posted by flagpole:
“I agree that the 10% clause doesn't just apply to minutes as i interpret it either.”

Then either (a) serve notice under the terms of your contract with them and stop paying or (b) go immediately to court and get them to rule in the matter.

Either way it'll end up in court and only a court will be able to interpret whether you have grounds to cancel without charge. (Personally I would take option b, but only after exhausting any discussion on the matter directly with Vodafone)

I doubt Vodafone would have asked OFCOM if they could change their terms, because as I posted in post#2 they certainly have every right to amend their terms and conditions as they have. What is in dispute is whether in your particular case you can cancel without charge assuming Vodafone introduce those charges to you.

Personally if I was vodafone presented with such a summons, I would either offer you 1 free MMS in return for 3 standard texts per month, or if that was too difficult to bill on a one off basis, a credit of 30p per month and in both instances, keep you tied to the contract.

As you can see, it could result in a lot of effort for you for very little reward.
Last edited by dawson : 11-08-2006 at 14:52
BoBaDoB
11-08-2006
i remember when this happened on t-mobile and orange! i wasnt on these forums then tho...

all networks following suit, seems to happen alot these days i can see new data packages coming soon tho to deal with the demand and feedback it would not surprise me in the slightest
Last edited by BoBaDoB : 11-08-2006 at 16:59
flagpole
12-08-2006
Originally Posted by dawson:
“Then either (a) serve notice under the terms of your contract with them and stop paying or (b) go immediately to court and get them to rule in the matter.

Either way it'll end up in court and only a court will be able to interpret whether you have grounds to cancel without charge. (Personally I would take option b, but only after exhausting any discussion on the matter directly with Vodafone)

I doubt Vodafone would have asked OFCOM if they could change their terms, because as I posted in post#2 they certainly have every right to amend their terms and conditions as they have. What is in dispute is whether in your particular case you can cancel without charge assuming Vodafone introduce those charges to you.

Personally if I was vodafone presented with such a summons, I would either offer you 1 free MMS in return for 3 standard texts per month, or if that was too difficult to bill on a one off basis, a credit of 30p per month and in both instances, keep you tied to the contract.

As you can see, it could result in a lot of effort for you for very little reward.”

As you say it's a lot of effort, for little reward. What i actually want them to do is not arse about and leave my contract as is.

The reason why they are being so sly i think is that if they agree to my interpretation, all the people with handsets, (i have a sim only contract) would get to keep their phone.
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