converting VHS-NTSC to DVD

sonicandtails · 18-09-2006, 23:11

I finally got my video off amazon.com

(it was called "holocaust 2000" by the way

it will play on most of my vcr`s but i want to convert it to play on a dvd....

tried to copy it in by JVC vcr-dvd-r combo unit.....
the top of the picture is at the bottom and the rest is at the top (like the picture has rolled up 1/5th...)

tried using a seperate vcr (JVC) to jvc dvd recoreder (same one), same effect

tried using a seperate vcr to a DAZZLE HOLLYWOOD DV BRIDGE (£300 ouch) and to another dvd recorder...full picture but in black n white...

then went from vcr-dazzle-pc (running studio 9)
same effect, tried using svhs cables/composite
(from dazzle->pc is firewire....)

any ideas on how to convert this film (apart from stickin a camcorder to the tv set.....

nicknack · 19-09-2006, 01:37

Have you set your DVD setting to NTSC?

Hal_loe · 19-09-2006, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonicandtails

I finally got my video off amazon.com

(it was called "holocaust 2000" by the way

it will play on most of my vcr`s but i want to convert it to play on a dvd....

tried to copy it in by JVC vcr-dvd-r combo unit.....
the top of the picture is at the bottom and the rest is at the top (like the picture has rolled up 1/5th...)

I assume it's a UK spec PAL VCR.

In which case the player more than likely be outputing the video as PAL60 not pure NTSC or PAL.

Only a few makes of DVD Recorder that I am aware of (Pioneer and some older Philips) will support PAL60.

I expect this is exactly how your video picture looks.

http://img437.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pal60wj5.jpg

This problem has been discussed in much more detail here

Hope that helps.

sonicandtails · 19-09-2006, 11:27

close...

when put to my tv its mint... and colour

when i plug it to pc pc its mint but black n white...

sonicandtails · 19-09-2006, 11:30

dont know if this helps its a JVC HR-S5955EK SUPER VHS ET

displays NTSC->PAL when playing the tape

inabsentia · 19-09-2006, 11:52

Your Video is outputting it in PAL60, which is a kind of 'hybrid' PAL/NTSC format that became popular after the video boom of the 80's, when people started bringing tapes back from the US and found they couldn't play on regular PAL VHS decks or on PAL only TV's. The thing is it doesn't 'convert' anything really, it just uses electronic 'trickery' to fool the TV into thinking it's getting a PAL signal to allow playback.

When you output it to a DVR, it just sees what it actually is- an NTSC tape being played on a non NTSC deck. As has already been said, very few PAL VHS decks will output 'pure' NTSC.

I overcame the problem many years ago now by getting a Samsung world standard VHS deck that would output any format you wanted from any source. So, if I had an NTSC master tape and wanted to create a PAL copy, I'd simply put the master in the Samsung, set the output to PAL and then connect up the PAL recording deck and it would make pretty decent copies . However, any VHS copy will not be as good as it's original, and a conversion takes away more quality too. So when I moved into the digital recording age, I then re-did the conversions straight to disc, this time instructing the Samsung to output an NTSC signal and the DVD recorder then recorded it in it's 'native' NTSC format - the result was a much improved picture quality over the VHS conversion.

Hardly worthwhile buying something to just convert one tape, but it's been very handy for me having this facility-especially as we've got family in North America and we regularly exchange home video which always proved problematical- now they get our movies in NTSC and I can send out PAL copies to our family over here.

Hal_loe · 19-09-2006, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonicandtails

close...

when put to my tv its mint... and colour

when i plug it to pc pc its mint but black n white...

Most modern TV's will accept pure NTSC, PAL60 and PAL.

DVD recorders mostly only accept pure NTSC or pure PAL.

The screen grab i provided a link to is a pure PAL cap.

For PAL - the colour subcarrier has a frequency of approx. 4.43 MHz.

For NTSC - color subcarrier has a frequency of approx. 3.58 MHz.

PAL60 is a combination of the NTSC lines with PAL colour data overlayed.

So black and white as the colour data is out of sync with what is expected.

I have been messing about with videos on my PC for years.

I can record PAL60 on my PC via a Dazzle DVC2 capture card. I have to set the video to NTSC and the colour system to 4.43MHz.

downthehatch · 19-09-2006, 13:54

As already posted you need a Pioneer or Philips recorder to transfer PAL 60 from NTSC VHS.
Panasonic/JVC /Toshiba only like pure NTSC
and most others like LG and the rest of the cheapies won't record either format

inabsentia · 19-09-2006, 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by downthehatch

As already posted you need a Pioneer or Philips recorder to transfer PAL 60 from NTSC VHS.

Do you mean the video recorder or the DVD recorder?

Either way ..not 'all' players of those brands will do what you say..it's only specific models.

Quote:

Panasonic/JVC /Toshiba only like pure NTSC
and most others like LG and the rest of the cheapies won't record either format

If you are going out to disc (i.e. DVD, then you would be better transferring it in it's native (i.e. NTSC) format- though again, you need to check whether the recorder will record in both NTSC and PAL- My first recorder- a Sainsbury's cheapo MICO branded model did without any problems, yet a later LG recorder didn't- though another LG recorder I've since come across...does...how perverse!!!!

Hal_loe · 19-09-2006, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by inabsentia

Do you mean the video recorder or the DVD recorder?

The vcr recorder outputs PAL60 (often called QUASI NTSC playback), only a very few expensive UK video recorders would output NTSC tapes the DVD recorder has to record PAL60.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inabsentia

If you are going out to disc (i.e. DVD, then you would be better transferring it in it's native (i.e. NTSC) format- though again, you need to check whether the recorder will record in both NTSC and PAL- My first recorder- a Sainsbury's cheapo MICO branded model did without any problems, yet a later LG recorder didn't- though another LG recorder I've since come across...does...how perverse!!!!

Don't tend to have a format converter, too expensive....

It's even easier just to buy the movie on DVD already be it PAL or NTSC.

inabsentia · 19-09-2006, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal_loe

The vcr recorder outputs PAL60 (often called QUASI NTSC playback), only a very few expensive UK video recorders would output NTSC tapes the DVD recorder has to record PAL60.

PAL 60 is really a 'trick' playback only mode, not a recordable one. Can't say I've ever come across a PAL 60 recording

Quote:

Don't tend to have a format converter, too expensive....

It's even easier just to buy the movie on DVD already be it PAL or NTSC.

Agreed, but if it isn't available on disc....
You don't need a format converter, that's the whole point-if you do have a VCR that will output pure NTSC, then record the disc in NTSC-problem solved

sonicandtails · 19-09-2006, 20:28

i`m going to borrow ad different converter, it MIGHT convert to pal

failing that i`ll just have to watch it on vhs.....

thanks for the info guys

Hal_loe · 19-09-2006, 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by inabsentia

PAL 60 is really a 'trick' playback only mode, not a recordable one. Can't say I've ever come across a PAL 60 recording.

Yes it is recordable otherwise I wouldn't be able to record some NTSC tapes I bought years ago.

You wouldn't know as after recording it looks like an NTSC capture.

It's just the recording process that requires the settings to be PAL60 / NTSC 4.43. To get the colour synced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inabsentia

Agreed, but if it isn't available on disc....
You don't need a format converter, that's the whole point-if you do have a VCR that will output pure NTSC, then record the disc in NTSC-problem solved

The few that I saw were as expensive as a format converter when Panasonic sold ones years ago. About a grand.

Whereas my PC mpeg2 encoder cost £200 4 years ago....

Hal_loe · 19-09-2006, 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal_loe

Yes it is recordable otherwise I wouldn't be able to record some NTSC tapes I bought years ago.

You wouldn't know as after recording it looks like an NTSC capture.

It's just the recording process that requires the settings to be PAL60 / NTSC 4.43. To get the colour synced.

One thing you have to remember is that NTSC DVD's should really be labelled as 'For Playback on NTSC TV Systems' and PAL DVD's should be labelled as 'For Playback on PAL TV Systems'.....

sonicandtails · 19-09-2006, 23:06

i have a sony tv with 2 scarts on the back, composite+svhs on the front..

all inputs are also outputs.....rgb,svhs,composite...

i was thinking i could feed the vhs feed in throught say 1 scart

and record down the other scart to the vhs (now in pal i hope)
or say may dvd recorder...

i have recorded "downstream" before from an aerial input

it just depends if the tv will convert it form me....

downthehatch · 19-09-2006, 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by inabsentia

Do you mean the video recorder or the DVD recorder?

Either way ..not 'all' players of those brands will do what you say..it's only specific models.

If you are going out to disc (i.e. DVD, then you would be better transferring it in it's native (i.e. NTSC) format- though again, you need to check whether the recorder will record in both NTSC and PAL- My first recorder- a Sainsbury's cheapo MICO branded model did without any problems, yet a later LG recorder didn't- though another LG recorder I've since come across...does...how perverse!!!!

All Pioneer recorders record PAL 60.
Pioneer have never done VHS---ever.
All Philips recorders also record PAL 60,however,I suspect Philips have started rebadging some el cheapos and this may account for some models not being able to ,but Philips recorders made by Philips all use the same basic chassis---PAL 60 recording is not a special feature.
These machines record the PAL 60 as NTSC.
Pure NTSC is not output by any standard UK VCR.
A special multistandard machine would be needed but these are usually mail order or Tottenham Court Road only

Last edited by downthehatch : 19-09-2006 at 23:23.

sonicandtails · 20-09-2006, 00:53

i`ve just remembered, i`ve got an archos multimedia jukebox thingy...

y know mp3,jpeg, videos,voice recorder

i`ve got the vcr add on module (turn it into a vcr)

plugged a composite lead in and bingo ! full colour, full screen

i`m recording it now on to it`s internal HD

it only records vids in mpeg 4 (divx)

but it`s a start
maybe i can outut a live stream elsewhere

by the way it recognises it as NTSC sicnal on the archos

on a side note i tried to recieve a "live vcr" stream to an old WIN TV card, same results...bnw+full or colour+roll
system cant seem to decide on the format..PAL-NTSC

tried aerial+composite

maybe i`l try my unused averTV card... say it supports PAL-NTSC-SECAM

i`m making progress thanks to your help

Hal_loe · 20-09-2006, 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonicandtails

i have a sony tv with 2 scarts on the back, composite+svhs on the front..

all inputs are also outputs.....rgb,svhs,composite...

i was thinking i could feed the vhs feed in through say 1 scart

and record down the other scart to the vhs (now in pal i hope)
or say may dvd recorder...

i have recorded "downstream" before from an aerial input

it just depends if the tv will convert it form me....

TV's don't tend to convert it they just display a PAL60 signal.

Last edited by Hal_loe : 20-09-2006 at 07:39.

Hal_loe · 20-09-2006, 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonicandtails

i`ve just remembered, i`ve got an archos multimedia jukebox thingy...

y know mp3,jpeg, videos,voice recorder

i`ve got the vcr add on module (turn it into a vcr)

plugged a composite lead in and bingo ! full colour, full screen

i`m recording it now on to it`s internal HD

it only records vids in mpeg 4 (divx)

but it`s a start
maybe i can outut a live stream elsewhere

by the way it recognises it as NTSC sicnal on the archos

on a side note i tried to recieve a "live vcr" stream to an old WIN TV card, same results...bnw+full or colour+roll
system cant seem to decide on the format..PAL-NTSC

tried aerial+composite

maybe i`l try my unused averTV card... say it supports PAL-NTSC-SECAM

i`m making progress thanks to your help

Yep the units with extra high video compression.

It is a form of NTSC just not pure NTSC.

It's NTSC 4.43 instead of NTSC 3.58 .

inabsentia · 20-09-2006, 10:58

Sorry, but I cannot find ANYWHERE that confirms PAL60 is a RECORDABLE format -it is purely a PLAYBACK format. Machines that say they have PAL60 capability will only playback in that mode, not record in it.

Hal_loe · 20-09-2006, 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by inabsentia

Sorry, but I cannot find ANYWHERE that confirms PAL60 is a RECORDABLE format -it is purely a PLAYBACK format. Machines that say they have PAL60 capability will only playback in that mode, not record in it.

You are obviously not understanding what I am saying.

Yes PAL60 is a playback format but to record it you have to decode it correctly, just as a TV does when it receives a PAL60 signal.

Some of the Philips DVD recorders which will record a PAL60 signal have the ability to decode the signal correctly, where as the majority do not.

As I previously mentioned in post #13

A recording from a PAL60 signal has the same video resolution as an NTSC recording. However you need to look for the colour signal at the PAL frequency of 4.43MHz instead of the NTSC frequency of 3.58MHz.

With my PC mpeg2 card I have the ability to control at which frequency it looks for the colour signal. While also looking for the PAL or NTSC lines.

In essence DVD-Video discs are NOT PAL or NTSC the just have the video formatted in different resolutions.

The following explains this more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaeldvd

From PAL vs NTSC
They're Not Really PAL or NTSC
The first thing I need to clarify about DVD is that PAL and NTSC are words and formats that are applied to DVD for convenience, and because of historical convention. There is nothing fundamental about a DVD which makes it either PAL or NTSC, but for simplicity and brevity, I will continue to use these terms throughout this article.
At their heart, DVDs are merely carriers of data files with compressed audio-visual information contained therein. This information can be placed on DVD in one of two resolutions; 720 x 576 pixels (PAL DVDs), or 720 x 480 pixels (NTSC DVDs), and with various frame rates (24, 25, and 30 frames per second are common). The DVD player itself takes this data file and formats it appropriately for display in either PAL or NTSC.

downthehatch · 20-09-2006, 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by inabsentia

Sorry, but I cannot find ANYWHERE that confirms PAL60 is a RECORDABLE format -it is purely a PLAYBACK format. Machines that say they have PAL60 capability will only playback in that mode, not record in it.

Well,we better let all my Pioneer recorders know that they should not be recording the NTSC VHS then.
PAL 60 is the same as NTSC 4.43,it was added to Panasonic VCR's in 1990 to allow NTSC VHS to play on tv's in colour as many sets back then would display NTSC in B&W ,if at all.
So it is a playback format,but then so is PAL and NTSC.
Philips and Pioneer recorders are just clever enough to be able to record PAL 60 too

Last edited by downthehatch : 20-09-2006 at 14:51.

inabsentia · 20-09-2006, 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal_loe

You are obviously not understanding what I am saying.

Yes PAL60 is a playback format but to record it you have to decode it correctly, just as a TV does when it receives a PAL60 signal.

Some of the Philips DVD recorders which will record a PAL60 signal have the ability to decode the signal correctly, where as the majority do not.

Yes, I do understand what you are saying- but there has been plenty of postings on here about recording in PAL60 and that simply is not possible because-as a recording format-it does not exist. It is just a form of electronic 'trickery' to make the display equipment 'think' it's getting a regular PAL signal. It relies on both the TV and video player being able to 'talk together' - if the TV is not capable of displaying it, then you just get-at best a stretched black and white image -at worst a mass of interference.

I have used several Phillips and Phillips clone DVD recorders and haven't yet come across one that will record from a VCR that is outputting in PAL60. I have though had those same recorders capture perfectly an NTSC output as there are some PAL VCR's out there capable of outputting NTSC - not many, but there are a few- and I'm not talking about the specialist multi standard VCR's either.

inabsentia · 20-09-2006, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by downthehatch

Well,we better let all my Pioneer recorders know that they should not be recording the NTSC VHS then.
PAL 60 is the same as NTSC 4.43,it was added to Panasonic VCR's in 1990 to allow NTSC VHS to play on tv's in colour as many sets back then would display NTSC in B&W ,if at all.
So it is a playback format,but then so is PAL and NTSC.
Philips and Pioneer recorders are just clever enough to be able to record PAL 60 too

Of course PAL and NTSC are recordable formats...that's what your VCR or DVD recorder is doing every time you record something!!!!

Your Pioneer is NOT recording in PAL60, if it's recording an NTSC source, it's recording in NTSC, NOT PAL60

Hal_loe · 20-09-2006, 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by inabsentia

Yes, I do understand what you are saying- but there has been plenty of postings on here about recording in PAL60 and that simply is not possible because-as a recording format-it does not exist. It is just a form of electronic 'trickery' to make the display equipment 'think' it's getting a regular PAL signal. It relies on both the TV and video player being able to 'talk together' - if the TV is not capable of displaying it, then you just get-at best a stretched black and white image -at worst a mass of interference.

I have used several Phillips and Phillips clone DVD recorders and haven't yet come across one that will record from a VCR that is outputting in PAL60. I have though had those same recorders capture perfectly an NTSC output as there are some PAL VCR's out there capable of outputting NTSC - not many, but there are a few- and I'm not talking about the specialist multi standard VCR's either.

Sorry for confused about who your comments were aimed at.

19-09-2006, 11:30	#5
sonicandtails Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Greater Manchester, UK Posts: 45	model number dont know if this helps its a JVC HR-S5955EK SUPER VHS ET displays NTSC->PAL when playing the tape

19-09-2006, 23:06	#15
sonicandtails Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Greater Manchester, UK Posts: 45	using my SONY tv to convert.... i have a sony tv with 2 scarts on the back, composite+svhs on the front.. all inputs are also outputs.....rgb,svhs,composite... i was thinking i could feed the vhs feed in throught say 1 scart and record down the other scart to the vhs (now in pal i hope) or say may dvd recorder... i have recorded "downstream" before from an aerial input it just depends if the tv will convert it form me....

20-09-2006, 00:53	#17
sonicandtails Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Greater Manchester, UK Posts: 45	another posibility i`ve just remembered, i`ve got an archos multimedia jukebox thingy... y know mp3,jpeg, videos,voice recorder i`ve got the vcr add on module (turn it into a vcr) plugged a composite lead in and bingo ! full colour, full screen i`m recording it now on to it`s internal HD it only records vids in mpeg 4 (divx) but it`s a start maybe i can outut a live stream elsewhere by the way it recognises it as NTSC sicnal on the archos on a side note i tried to recieve a "live vcr" stream to an old WIN TV card, same results...bnw+full or colour+roll system cant seem to decide on the format..PAL-NTSC tried aerial+composite maybe i`l try my unused averTV card... say it supports PAL-NTSC-SECAM i`m making progress thanks to your help

20-09-2006, 10:58	#20
inabsentia Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 993	Sorry, but I cannot find ANYWHERE that confirms PAL60 is a RECORDABLE format -it is purely a PLAYBACK format. Machines that say they have PAL60 capability will only playback in that mode, not record in it. Last edited by inabsentia : 20-09-2006 at 11:00.

18-09-2006, 23:11	#1
sonicandtails Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Greater Manchester, UK Posts: 45	converting VHS-NTSC to DVD I finally got my video off amazon.com (it was called "holocaust 2000" by the way it will play on most of my vcr`s but i want to convert it to play on a dvd.... tried to copy it in by JVC vcr-dvd-r combo unit..... the top of the picture is at the bottom and the rest is at the top (like the picture has rolled up 1/5th...) tried using a seperate vcr (JVC) to jvc dvd recoreder (same one), same effect tried using a seperate vcr to a DAZZLE HOLLYWOOD DV BRIDGE (£300 ouch) and to another dvd recorder...full picture but in black n white... then went from vcr-dazzle-pc (running studio 9) same effect, tried using svhs cables/composite (from dazzle->pc is firewire....) any ideas on how to convert this film (apart from stickin a camcorder to the tv set.....

19-09-2006, 01:37	#2
nicknack Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 610	Have you set your DVD setting to NTSC?

19-09-2006, 07:47	#3
Hal_loe Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 440	Quote: Originally Posted by sonicandtails I finally got my video off amazon.com (it was called "holocaust 2000" by the way it will play on most of my vcr`s but i want to convert it to play on a dvd.... tried to copy it in by JVC vcr-dvd-r combo unit..... the top of the picture is at the bottom and the rest is at the top (like the picture has rolled up 1/5th...) I assume it's a UK spec PAL VCR. In which case the player more than likely be outputing the video as PAL60 not pure NTSC or PAL. Only a few makes of DVD Recorder that I am aware of (Pioneer and some older Philips) will support PAL60. I expect this is exactly how your video picture looks. http://img437.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pal60wj5.jpg This problem has been discussed in much more detail here Hope that helps.

19-09-2006, 11:27	#4
sonicandtails Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Greater Manchester, UK Posts: 45	close... when put to my tv its mint... and colour when i plug it to pc pc its mint but black n white...

19-09-2006, 11:52	#6
inabsentia Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 993	Your Video is outputting it in PAL60, which is a kind of 'hybrid' PAL/NTSC format that became popular after the video boom of the 80's, when people started bringing tapes back from the US and found they couldn't play on regular PAL VHS decks or on PAL only TV's. The thing is it doesn't 'convert' anything really, it just uses electronic 'trickery' to fool the TV into thinking it's getting a PAL signal to allow playback. When you output it to a DVR, it just sees what it actually is- an NTSC tape being played on a non NTSC deck. As has already been said, very few PAL VHS decks will output 'pure' NTSC. I overcame the problem many years ago now by getting a Samsung world standard VHS deck that would output any format you wanted from any source. So, if I had an NTSC master tape and wanted to create a PAL copy, I'd simply put the master in the Samsung, set the output to PAL and then connect up the PAL recording deck and it would make pretty decent copies . However, any VHS copy will not be as good as it's original, and a conversion takes away more quality too. So when I moved into the digital recording age, I then re-did the conversions straight to disc, this time instructing the Samsung to output an NTSC signal and the DVD recorder then recorded it in it's 'native' NTSC format - the result was a much improved picture quality over the VHS conversion. Hardly worthwhile buying something to just convert one tape, but it's been very handy for me having this facility-especially as we've got family in North America and we regularly exchange home video which always proved problematical- now they get our movies in NTSC and I can send out PAL copies to our family over here.

19-09-2006, 13:30	#7
Hal_loe Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 440	Quote: Originally Posted by sonicandtails close... when put to my tv its mint... and colour when i plug it to pc pc its mint but black n white... Most modern TV's will accept pure NTSC, PAL60 and PAL. DVD recorders mostly only accept pure NTSC or pure PAL. The screen grab i provided a link to is a pure PAL cap. For PAL - the colour subcarrier has a frequency of approx. 4.43 MHz. For NTSC - color subcarrier has a frequency of approx. 3.58 MHz. PAL60 is a combination of the NTSC lines with PAL colour data overlayed. So black and white as the colour data is out of sync with what is expected. I have been messing about with videos on my PC for years. I can record PAL60 on my PC via a Dazzle DVC2 capture card. I have to set the video to NTSC and the colour system to 4.43MHz.

19-09-2006, 13:54	#8
downthehatch Banned User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 729	As already posted you need a Pioneer or Philips recorder to transfer PAL 60 from NTSC VHS. Panasonic/JVC /Toshiba only like pure NTSC and most others like LG and the rest of the cheapies won't record either format

19-09-2006, 14:12	#9
inabsentia Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 993	Quote: Originally Posted by downthehatch As already posted you need a Pioneer or Philips recorder to transfer PAL 60 from NTSC VHS. Do you mean the video recorder or the DVD recorder? Either way ..not 'all' players of those brands will do what you say..it's only specific models. Quote: Panasonic/JVC /Toshiba only like pure NTSC and most others like LG and the rest of the cheapies won't record either format If you are going out to disc (i.e. DVD, then you would be better transferring it in it's native (i.e. NTSC) format- though again, you need to check whether the recorder will record in both NTSC and PAL- My first recorder- a Sainsbury's cheapo MICO branded model did without any problems, yet a later LG recorder didn't- though another LG recorder I've since come across...does...how perverse!!!!

19-09-2006, 17:55	#10
Hal_loe Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 440	Quote: Originally Posted by inabsentia Do you mean the video recorder or the DVD recorder? The vcr recorder outputs PAL60 (often called QUASI NTSC playback), only a very few expensive UK video recorders would output NTSC tapes the DVD recorder has to record PAL60. Quote: Originally Posted by inabsentia If you are going out to disc (i.e. DVD, then you would be better transferring it in it's native (i.e. NTSC) format- though again, you need to check whether the recorder will record in both NTSC and PAL- My first recorder- a Sainsbury's cheapo MICO branded model did without any problems, yet a later LG recorder didn't- though another LG recorder I've since come across...does...how perverse!!!! Don't tend to have a format converter, too expensive.... It's even easier just to buy the movie on DVD already be it PAL or NTSC.

19-09-2006, 19:41	#11
inabsentia Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 993	Quote: Originally Posted by Hal_loe The vcr recorder outputs PAL60 (often called QUASI NTSC playback), only a very few expensive UK video recorders would output NTSC tapes the DVD recorder has to record PAL60. PAL 60 is really a 'trick' playback only mode, not a recordable one. Can't say I've ever come across a PAL 60 recording Quote: Don't tend to have a format converter, too expensive.... It's even easier just to buy the movie on DVD already be it PAL or NTSC. Agreed, but if it isn't available on disc.... You don't need a format converter, that's the whole point-if you do have a VCR that will output pure NTSC, then record the disc in NTSC-problem solved

19-09-2006, 20:28	#12
sonicandtails Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Greater Manchester, UK Posts: 45	i`m going to borrow ad different converter, it MIGHT convert to pal failing that i`ll just have to watch it on vhs..... thanks for the info guys

19-09-2006, 21:11	#13
Hal_loe Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 440	Quote: Originally Posted by inabsentia PAL 60 is really a 'trick' playback only mode, not a recordable one. Can't say I've ever come across a PAL 60 recording. Yes it is recordable otherwise I wouldn't be able to record some NTSC tapes I bought years ago. You wouldn't know as after recording it looks like an NTSC capture. It's just the recording process that requires the settings to be PAL60 / NTSC 4.43. To get the colour synced. Quote: Originally Posted by inabsentia Agreed, but if it isn't available on disc.... You don't need a format converter, that's the whole point-if you do have a VCR that will output pure NTSC, then record the disc in NTSC-problem solved The few that I saw were as expensive as a format converter when Panasonic sold ones years ago. About a grand. Whereas my PC mpeg2 encoder cost £200 4 years ago....

19-09-2006, 21:50	#14
Hal_loe Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 440	Quote: Originally Posted by Hal_loe Yes it is recordable otherwise I wouldn't be able to record some NTSC tapes I bought years ago. You wouldn't know as after recording it looks like an NTSC capture. It's just the recording process that requires the settings to be PAL60 / NTSC 4.43. To get the colour synced. One thing you have to remember is that NTSC DVD's should really be labelled as 'For Playback on NTSC TV Systems' and PAL DVD's should be labelled as 'For Playback on PAL TV Systems'.....

19-09-2006, 23:21	#16
downthehatch Banned User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 729	Quote: Originally Posted by inabsentia Do you mean the video recorder or the DVD recorder? Either way ..not 'all' players of those brands will do what you say..it's only specific models. If you are going out to disc (i.e. DVD, then you would be better transferring it in it's native (i.e. NTSC) format- though again, you need to check whether the recorder will record in both NTSC and PAL- My first recorder- a Sainsbury's cheapo MICO branded model did without any problems, yet a later LG recorder didn't- though another LG recorder I've since come across...does...how perverse!!!! All Pioneer recorders record PAL 60. Pioneer have never done VHS---ever. All Philips recorders also record PAL 60,however,I suspect Philips have started rebadging some el cheapos and this may account for some models not being able to ,but Philips recorders made by Philips all use the same basic chassis---PAL 60 recording is not a special feature. These machines record the PAL 60 as NTSC. Pure NTSC is not output by any standard UK VCR. A special multistandard machine would be needed but these are usually mail order or Tottenham Court Road only Last edited by downthehatch : 19-09-2006 at 23:23.

20-09-2006, 07:32	#18
Hal_loe Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 440	Quote: Originally Posted by sonicandtails i have a sony tv with 2 scarts on the back, composite+svhs on the front.. all inputs are also outputs.....rgb,svhs,composite... i was thinking i could feed the vhs feed in through say 1 scart and record down the other scart to the vhs (now in pal i hope) or say may dvd recorder... i have recorded "downstream" before from an aerial input it just depends if the tv will convert it form me.... TV's don't tend to convert it they just display a PAL60 signal. Last edited by Hal_loe : 20-09-2006 at 07:39.

20-09-2006, 07:38	#19
Hal_loe Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 440	Quote: Originally Posted by sonicandtails i`ve just remembered, i`ve got an archos multimedia jukebox thingy... y know mp3,jpeg, videos,voice recorder i`ve got the vcr add on module (turn it into a vcr) plugged a composite lead in and bingo ! full colour, full screen i`m recording it now on to it`s internal HD it only records vids in mpeg 4 (divx) but it`s a start maybe i can outut a live stream elsewhere by the way it recognises it as NTSC sicnal on the archos on a side note i tried to recieve a "live vcr" stream to an old WIN TV card, same results...bnw+full or colour+roll system cant seem to decide on the format..PAL-NTSC tried aerial+composite maybe i`l try my unused averTV card... say it supports PAL-NTSC-SECAM i`m making progress thanks to your help Yep the units with extra high video compression. It is a form of NTSC just not pure NTSC. It's NTSC 4.43 instead of NTSC 3.58 .

20-09-2006, 14:00	#21
Hal_loe Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 440	Quote: Originally Posted by inabsentia Sorry, but I cannot find ANYWHERE that confirms PAL60 is a RECORDABLE format -it is purely a PLAYBACK format. Machines that say they have PAL60 capability will only playback in that mode, not record in it. You are obviously not understanding what I am saying. Yes PAL60 is a playback format but to record it you have to decode it correctly, just as a TV does when it receives a PAL60 signal. Some of the Philips DVD recorders which will record a PAL60 signal have the ability to decode the signal correctly, where as the majority do not. As I previously mentioned in post #13 A recording from a PAL60 signal has the same video resolution as an NTSC recording. However you need to look for the colour signal at the PAL frequency of 4.43MHz instead of the NTSC frequency of 3.58MHz. With my PC mpeg2 card I have the ability to control at which frequency it looks for the colour signal. While also looking for the PAL or NTSC lines. In essence DVD-Video discs are NOT PAL or NTSC the just have the video formatted in different resolutions. The following explains this more. Quote: Originally Posted by michaeldvd From PAL vs NTSC They're Not Really PAL or NTSC The first thing I need to clarify about DVD is that PAL and NTSC are words and formats that are applied to DVD for convenience, and because of historical convention. There is nothing fundamental about a DVD which makes it either PAL or NTSC, but for simplicity and brevity, I will continue to use these terms throughout this article. At their heart, DVDs are merely carriers of data files with compressed audio-visual information contained therein. This information can be placed on DVD in one of two resolutions; 720 x 576 pixels (PAL DVDs), or 720 x 480 pixels (NTSC DVDs), and with various frame rates (24, 25, and 30 frames per second are common). The DVD player itself takes this data file and formats it appropriately for display in either PAL or NTSC.

20-09-2006, 14:50	#22
downthehatch Banned User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 729	Quote: Originally Posted by inabsentia Sorry, but I cannot find ANYWHERE that confirms PAL60 is a RECORDABLE format -it is purely a PLAYBACK format. Machines that say they have PAL60 capability will only playback in that mode, not record in it. Well,we better let all my Pioneer recorders know that they should not be recording the NTSC VHS then. PAL 60 is the same as NTSC 4.43,it was added to Panasonic VCR's in 1990 to allow NTSC VHS to play on tv's in colour as many sets back then would display NTSC in B&W ,if at all. So it is a playback format,but then so is PAL and NTSC. Philips and Pioneer recorders are just clever enough to be able to record PAL 60 too Last edited by downthehatch : 20-09-2006 at 14:51.

20-09-2006, 14:55	#23
inabsentia Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 993	Quote: Originally Posted by Hal_loe You are obviously not understanding what I am saying. Yes PAL60 is a playback format but to record it you have to decode it correctly, just as a TV does when it receives a PAL60 signal. Some of the Philips DVD recorders which will record a PAL60 signal have the ability to decode the signal correctly, where as the majority do not. Yes, I do understand what you are saying- but there has been plenty of postings on here about recording in PAL60 and that simply is not possible because-as a recording format-it does not exist. It is just a form of electronic 'trickery' to make the display equipment 'think' it's getting a regular PAL signal. It relies on both the TV and video player being able to 'talk together' - if the TV is not capable of displaying it, then you just get-at best a stretched black and white image -at worst a mass of interference. I have used several Phillips and Phillips clone DVD recorders and haven't yet come across one that will record from a VCR that is outputting in PAL60. I have though had those same recorders capture perfectly an NTSC output as there are some PAL VCR's out there capable of outputting NTSC - not many, but there are a few- and I'm not talking about the specialist multi standard VCR's either.

20-09-2006, 15:06	#24
inabsentia Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 993	Quote: Originally Posted by downthehatch Well,we better let all my Pioneer recorders know that they should not be recording the NTSC VHS then. PAL 60 is the same as NTSC 4.43,it was added to Panasonic VCR's in 1990 to allow NTSC VHS to play on tv's in colour as many sets back then would display NTSC in B&W ,if at all. So it is a playback format,but then so is PAL and NTSC. Philips and Pioneer recorders are just clever enough to be able to record PAL 60 too Of course PAL and NTSC are recordable formats...that's what your VCR or DVD recorder is doing every time you record something!!!! Your Pioneer is NOT recording in PAL60, if it's recording an NTSC source, it's recording in NTSC, NOT PAL60

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converting VHS-NTSC to DVD

20-09-2006, 18:00	#25
Hal_loe Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 440	Quote: Originally Posted by inabsentia Yes, I do understand what you are saying- but there has been plenty of postings on here about recording in PAL60 and that simply is not possible because-as a recording format-it does not exist. It is just a form of electronic 'trickery' to make the display equipment 'think' it's getting a regular PAL signal. It relies on both the TV and video player being able to 'talk together' - if the TV is not capable of displaying it, then you just get-at best a stretched black and white image -at worst a mass of interference. I have used several Phillips and Phillips clone DVD recorders and haven't yet come across one that will record from a VCR that is outputting in PAL60. I have though had those same recorders capture perfectly an NTSC output as there are some PAL VCR's out there capable of outputting NTSC - not many, but there are a few- and I'm not talking about the specialist multi standard VCR's either. Sorry for confused about who your comments were aimed at.