I think it must be hard, though, to mark 2 such different dances side-by-side?
Often, you will find that one dance tops the leader board rather than the dancers - last week it was 2 jives at the top, I think.
Do they think it would be boring to see all the dancers do the one dance, but surely that would give more conistent and fairer marks?

Having said that, perhaps not - Carole was told she had done the best foxtrot upto that point - but was still marked lower than Louisa at the time!

Here is my two cents ...

SCD is a VERY successful show which now dominates Saturday nights on BBC1.
It's got here because of it's current format ... nothing has changed.

The judges have been bickering with each other and being inconsistent since the first show.

What seems to be changing is our expectation of the show.
We all want it to mature in line with our growing appreciation of dancing as an art.

SCD isn't that kind of a show.

If it was, when dancing the Pasadoble, they would choose Pasadoble music ... not hard rock!
The camera angles and switching would focus more on the couple's footwork instead of long distance zooming and frantic switching from camera to camera.

The judges are part of the entertainment because this is what the show is about, pure entertainment not a serious contest.

The BBC used to screen Come Dancing (the true professional contest) where music did match the dance and camera work was much more restrained in order to assess footwork.
It was everything a true dancing enthusiast could wish for .... but without the drama and ratings of SCD.

I guess my point is ... SCD's format has taking it where it is today, a very succesful Saturday Night event which should be viewed for what it is .... a mix of entertainment, drama and controversy.

Amen to whoever started this thread. Brendan was spot on - at least about Len and Arlene.

Brendan is, of course, entitled to his views, which he and others may well feel to be valid. However, the one who is really unprofessional was Brendan, his behaviour and outburst were disgraceful and unacceptable. He has been a competing professional for many years, and he knows what is acceptable behaviour in the ballroom world, and I can assure you what he did is totally unacceptable. Bias among judges is rife at all levels of competition, and you get sometimes widely differing marking from judges, as you do on this show. Brendan is well used to that, he is obviously trying anything he can to create interest in himself and his partner (who is not that good) so he can stay in the competition. Can't really blame him for that, but people should understand his motive in creating conflict. It is for his own benefit, and not as he tries to claim because he cares about the programme in its entirety.

I think a lot of the inconsistent marking comes from the fact that the celebrities are judged against what was expected of them, rather than against a fixed "standard". So, Georgina got an 8 because she had been rubbish in the previous weeks, whereas Ray got a 7 because he had previously been good. How many times have we heard judges say things like "I expected much better from you" when a celebrity has actually put in a good, but not flashy, performance? And should celebrities be marked down if the judges find the choreography dull? It's beyond their control.

I also wonder how much time is spent judging the dance and how much on thinking up a "clever" phrase or soundbite. Some of the stuff Bruno says is such rubbish that I can believe it is spur of the moment (like when he used Incredible Hulk as a compliment for Ray). But when Arlene said to Matt Dawson "well, you're a scrum half but you didn't do that by half", had she really come up with it in the couple of minutes she was watching the dance? Or did she think of it on the previous Tuesday and therefore would have said it regardless of the performance?
Last edited by JoDay : 29-10-2006 at 23:36

Spot on Hodman! You've saved me having to make an intrusion into all this reactionary melodrama by the dance purists (much as a love 'em) on this forum.

As soon as we begin to appease the dance traditionalists we lose Strictly Come Dancing as a popular light entertainment show with something for everyone, and as soon as we water down the show to a cheap panto then we lose Strictly Come Dancing as a popular light entertainment show with integrity.

At the moment, i feel it continues to strike just the right balance. We have a successful popular light entertainment show. Wit, charm, warmth, drama, skill, personality with lots of fun and dazzling dancing. Long may it reign as being just that! Keep the scales balanced.

I love the enthusiam of this forum but i disgree with the direction a lot of you would wish to take the show.

I agree with you dancingles, maybe he was upset with the marking but to call the judges like that only draw attention to his self and his partner [a lot of people have said they voted for them for saying this or they will next week]
Also were was his own proffesoinal behavior when he did the lift in week two and make referenceses to it in week 3 when he knew other couples wouldn t be doing it.
If all four judges, judged the same there would only end up needing one judge. Of course the look for different things from different view points, that is why there is four judges.

I have to agree with most people here about the unprofessionalism of the judges this week. Their marks were so erratic and inconsistent that by the end of the show I (a non-dancer) could barely tell the difference between a good dance and a bad dance. While I take their point about how they all look for different things, surely there should be some sort of basic standard benchmark? Otherwise, how are the couples going to know what to do to get good scores?

Arlene was the worst. While Mark definitely did deserve his high marks, in the case of Arlene I got the impression she was only scoring him so well because she fancies him. Meanwhile, Claire and Brendan didn't deserve a 4 - I do wonder if she marked them down because she doesn't like Brendan.

And, speaking of which, I also wasn't very happy with her and Len (who I usually like) saying Brendan should leave because of what he said about the judging. Decide who should leave on the basis of the dancing, please. They just looked as if they could dish it out but not take it. And her personal comment to Brendan completely disgusted me. She sank to a new low there.

My final comment is about the judges' favouritism, which I've always been uncomfortable with. If they insist on having favourites I wish they wouldn't make it so obvious. In some cases they didn't seem to be marking according to how well the celebrities did in the dance, but according to who they want to see in the final.

I think the one being disgraceful and unacceptable are inconsistent and unfair bullies, which summarise the behaviour and comments of the judges. In any proper competition there are rules and if the judges try to create their own rules every week, then the participants have the right to speak out. I found it more unacceptable to criticise those who just want a proper competition. Brendan did broke the rule in week 1, but he has changed in the following weeks and in last week he was working so hard for a proper Foxtrot and what comments has he got - 'stick to the dirty stuff, leave the elegant to the others' - comments from the very judge who was furious that he broke the rule 2 weeks ago, someone said 'Brendan has a screw loose'. How can one not expose under this situation? I think Brendan was very well-behaved, if it was me, the language would definitely be much stronger.

I agree luckyforest - I thought Brendan was actually quite restrained. There has clearly been a rising feeling of discontent about the judges among all the couples this year and they seemed to have been discussing this very issue on Saturday. Since there is an obvious comradeship between everyone, Brendan decided enough is enough after Arlene's comment that Claire was hanging on for dear life when he felt she wasn't and Len's ridiculous remark - which was unprofessional and unconstructive. Brendan had every right to question this and also speak on behalf of the other's who maybe lacked the courage to do so themselves.
He remained calm and did not stoop to the personal level that Arlene and Len chose. They were just retaliating to having their opinion questioned - but if you actually think about what what Arlene and Len said on Saturday, Brendan was 100% correct. After all he had watched every dance and seen how upset some of the couples were.

Dancingles, I don't think Brendan did it to gain votes and I don't think he was being unprofessional. Claire is a good dancer, we saw that on Saturday and Brendan was more than satisfied with her performance - so he had no reason to fish for votes. Anyway, we really cannot compare SCD to a professional dance competition and the celebrities should be treated with respect and appreciation for making the show what it is.
Brendan himself has spoken in an email he sent to a forum member on Sunday in response to one she sent to him. Kaos, I hope you mind me quoting your post but I think it is relevant here and puts Brendan's point of view clearly:

Quoted from post 3004 - Brendan Cole Thread
'He says thanks to everyone... He just wanted to protect not only his dance partner but a friend... And everyone who was unfairly treated last night... That he loves all of the celebs to death but its unfair that there is such a big bias in the judges...
He also said to any conspiracy to that being to win votes it weren't, he's allowed to have his opinon... This ain't a REAL competition its just an entertainment show, so being so cruel to people who only have a week to learn the dances is wrong, and if they want to be acidic in their comments don't get in a bad mood when we get acidic with comments back..'
Last edited by Liz G-S : 30-10-2006 at 06:34

Well hopefully Brendan's outburst has given the judges a kick up the backside - looking at the green room afterwards all the contestants (with - I think- the exception of Darren B) were applauding him.

Carol and Matthew must have felt so demoralised to be told they had done the best foxtrot of the night - only to be marked lower than at least 2 others.

Claire and Brendan's routine was beautiful to watch with great footwork - done properlyand yet only got a 4 from Arlene (which was given BEFORE his outburst) so she was trying to be controversial and definitely not marking the dancing. That mark alone showed he really does have a valid point (don't agree with him saying Ray's was the the best Paso though - that definitely was Mark!), and Len's comment was well out of order - the Foxtrot isn't a raunchy dance so why tell them to leave the elegant stuff to others.

I do wish he'd show Claire where to hold his arm though.... I didn't think she was clinging on for dear life - but there's something wrong with her hold...

And as for saying they should go in the results show - well sorry Len and Arlene - they should have been judged on their dancing for that - the right two ended up on the bottom after the publlic had had their say.

PS did you notice James answering Arlene back when she accused him of being a bully - he said something like "You're one to talk!"

Brunos scores are always so close (all five ladies either a 7 or an 8 on Saturday) that he could be ditched next series, the fee saved, and it would probably make no difference whatsoever to the order ranking of the couples.

They then have three judges, an odd number, who could call for a save from the bottom two.

The OP mentions it is week 4, of series 4 and sorry in all that time this is the first time the WHOLE judging panel has deserved criticism, yes Louisa and esepcially Emma were way over marked this week. Brendan has a hissy fit cos of what they said. For pete's sake it is Brendan we are talking about and Georgina's partner has definitely been getting all the 'bad boy' attention, it was just too easy, given the judges fall from excellence this week for him to have a strop and start throwing around all sorts if accusations.

Heck the judges are not tv people, they do not normally get this sort of public attention and of course they all love it, but any reaction could be blamed on how they are briefed by the BBC, to show off a bit AND Brendan does make it rather easy.

40 odd weeks over 4 years and one 'bad day at the office' everyone wants to sack the lot of them, I'd love to see that defended at an Industrial Tribunal.

I agree that the scoring seems to have gone completely mad. I'm not a long-time viewer of the show (just started watching last series), but could it be because the viewers' votes are getting more tactical (keeping in favourites over talent), so the judges are getting more extreme in their own attempts to save their own favourites and to hell with the rest?
For me, the scoring low points were 2 from Craig for Peter and Erin - people have staggered around and fallen on their bums and got better marks than this from Craig! Also Arlene's 4 for Brendan - clearly a case of marking the dancers over the dancing!
Meanwhile Louisa and Emma, who were both pretty mediocre IMO, got better marks than they deserved.

As I've said elsewhere and in previous series - why oh why do we only have ONE judge (out of 4) who knows his arse from his elbow where ballroom dancing is concerned. If this is a ballroom dancing programme why do we have to be inflicted with mean/ nasty/ personal/ hysterical comments about the competitors from 3 people who do not really know what they are talking about in terms of technical ability?

I can see the point of having one, possibly 2 of them there to comment on the performances but I don't see why we need 3!

And if DWTS can have Len and Bruno - why can't we get Carrie Anne Inaba from DWTS over here? She can be as nasty as Craig and Arlene about performances - but at least she is coming at it with a modicum of knowledge (and manages not to drool over the male dancers.....)

Len and Craig and I think even Arlene need to stay...they do bring some sense (sometimes) although Craig needs to stop the Emma love and Arlene needs to be less pervy and personal and Len needs to stop being over generous. Bruno, hilarious though he is, needs to be replaced by another ballroom expert.

come now, let's not allow your favourite to cloud your judgement. All the judges said that emma's footwork was right off. No heel turns, so how could she clearly be the best.

I have to agree, ESPECIALLY ABOUT LEN, and as I seem to be defending the judges, I would say they just need to cut down on Bruno's caffeine.

Much as I am a fan of Len, I do understand why the other judges are there and even with my attitude I would hate to see any of them 'dumped', BUT I would like another ballroom judge, even if it is only to even out Len's expertise, cos I treat him like a SCD GOD, cos he is the ballroom expert, if he says it is true. With another and alternate ballroom judge maybe dance dunce's like me might get even more out of SCD.

I love Len, every dance as they are scoring, when it's Len's turn I say to the telly "6, you turned up". This I find a little ridiculous I have to say. But I do like the man.

Arlene has to stop saying things about mens bottoms in such a sexual way, the women don't get the same sort of comments, seems a little sexist to me.

I think over the series the judges part in the show has been getting bigger and bigger - and now it has just become more about them and their witty and totally spontaneous (well, carefully practiced in front of the mirror for the week previous!) remarks.

It doesn't sit very easy with me and I guess others that they are so personal about the celebs - these people are not professional dancers - that's the whole point! They are fitting the dancing into their work schedule and still managing to train upwards of 70 hours a week. Sometimes, they may not be able to dance - and with the best will in the world not everyone can - but that doesn't mean they are not dedicated or not trying.

If, as Len said each judge is there to mark a different aspect of the dance, then make that clear - Craig marks the choreography, Arelene the passion, Len the technique and Bruno - erm, Bruno ... well, you get the jist.

I'm not a dance purist in any sense, so Trem Two can just take their strawman argument and **** off. I know very little about the technical aspects either; my reaction to each performance is based on some kind gut instinct aesthetics thing (good dancing just looks "right").

I don't want SCD to be ultra-serious, but I don't want the judges to hog the limelight and give ridiculous marks (Arlene's 4) and/or make offensive comments (Len) and/or just be a waste of space (Bruno). The judges have always done strange things, but Saturday was just mad.

Actually I think you'll find that Arlene is extrmely happy in her private life - she may appear to be using libido as background to her judgement but she is not exactly off the mark there is she?? ----isn't that in fact a starting point for most of us? - the adulation of Mark upon this website is littered with comments on his looks, eyes, sexiness etc. so perhaps people in glass houses shouldn't.etc...............??? Back to Arlene though she is tough and I do believe that the vast majority of her comments are accurate and constructive and that she lives and breathes dancing and truly cares and to be honest I agree with Craigs comments most of the time - I do think Len has gone a bit weird and his lasciviousness is more worrying to me than Arlene's outright remarks - and Bruno, well who is (was) he anyway?!- totally biased to the younger ones and glitz and glam....waste of time and the one that should be replaced.

Good grief. I hardly think my 'strawman argument' warranted that sort of response. A sense of perspective might be of use to you.


Fair enough, i'm not saying there isn't an issue with the judges. But its an issue that breathes within the context of the show and will work its way through the sub-plot of programme one way or another. And its all the more engaging because those involved are stating their case. The judges are there, we love them, we hate them - we continue to watch.

Its like the lobby who routinely complain about Bruce. Completely out of proportion.

News:

http://strictlycomeblogging.spaces.live.com/

NEWS:

http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=635

interesting news articles - did any of the other papers pick it up?