It looks as though the campaign to have 0870 numbers classed as 'premium rate' is beginning to pay off.

More people and organisationsa are now beginning to realise what a rip off they are.

See:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/busin...956915,00.html

for an example.

May the force be with them!!!
Last edited by poppasmurf : 26-11-2006 at 11:20

Total ripoff. They should be classified as premium numbers.

Still if more people did their homework http://www.saynoto0870.com

Back in the day, it made sense, 0845 were charged at local rates, 0870 were charged at national rates. More recently, the local/regional/national rate distinction has pretty much disappeared, and all calls to landline numbers are charged at the same rate, whether its next door or 300 miles away.

For these numbers (including 0845), they should display the call cost when advertising these numbers, as they are no longer charged at the same rates as landlines.

B

A couple of years ago I tried to put an 0870 number onto our "friends and family" list (using the net) but BT's system told me I couldn't include premium rate numbers! Not sure if the situation has changed in the meantime, but back then it was classed as a premium rate call.

0870 numbers as everyone is fully aware are not premium rate services, but a National Rate NTS (Number Translation System) number.

(except numbers starting 0870 09, 0870 185, 0870 187 & 0870 188 which are classed as calls to Internet Services and charged at a different rate)

0870 numbers are not eligible for BT Friends & Family discounts.

Premium rate services, again as everyone knows, all start 09 and have done so since "PhONE Day" on 16 April 1995.
Last edited by dawson : 30-11-2006 at 09:40

Agreed but, remove the telcos' clever use of capitals (intended to 'massage' the true meaning) and the charges for calling 0870 numbers ARE premium rate (the dictionary definition of the phrase 'premium rate' is, of course, "a telephone number or service that costs more to call than a normal telephone number").
Last edited by Heinz : 30-11-2006 at 10:36

As you know, premium rate services have a particular meaning with regards to telephone services. All premium rate telephone services start 09 to identify them as such and to warn you of the premium rate that you will be charged.

Whilst I am aware of the dictionary definition of premium, it really does not apply in this instance. Calls to different numbers cost different amounts. They always have done and probably always will, but they are not premium rate.

By your definition, mobile numbers are 'premium rate' since calls to them cost more than calls to 01/02 numbers.
Or perhaps T-mobile telephone numbers are premium rate since it is cheaper to call O2 mobiles using a BT landline.

Remember that BT residential customers on a BT Together package are getting preferential (i.e. cheaper) rates to 01/02 numbers than is the norm (a bit like how mobile customers get special offers like free calltime bundles, stop the clock, etc). Non BT Together customers are charged at the same rate for 0870 numbers as they are for national rate fixed line calls.

Btw, a daytime call mon-fri to an 01/02 number on O2 PAYG Original tariff costs 35p per minute whereas a call on that same tariff to an 0870 costs just 15p per minute - which is the premium rate there?

You see how ridiculous your argument can become.

That is why premium rate services start 09 and those are the ones that ICSTIS has any control over.
Last edited by dawson : 30-11-2006 at 18:07

Are 0870 numbers put on top of a geographical number? Cause you can divert 0870 number to a normal number can't you? Surely if you can, you maybe able to find the 01/02 number that is behind the 0870 number?

My 0871 number (10p a minute to call!) is diverted to my landline number.

I'm afraid you've rather missed the point.

0870, 0871 and eve 0845 numbers are premium numbers for the simple reason that you have to pay a premium to call them.

There is no physical difference between and 0870 call and an 01 / 02 call which is not the case with calls abroad or to mobiles. Thus the extra is simply a premium (effectively a tax) imposed by some telco along the way.

Nice try at defending them, but I'm afraid no cigar.

The reason for starting this thread was to show that even the national press are beginning to realise that 0870 numbers ARE premium rate, and what a rip-off they are too.

It's a pity one or two people are too blind to realise this as a fact, and continue to insist that 0870 numbers are nothing more than 'more expensive'. 0870 numbers are a money making scam by companies large and small, and its the individual that foots the bill (but not me, I'm pleased to say)!

You can imagine the telephone executive that was sitting in his bath, who hit on the idea of getting people to pay for all inclusive calls, and then getting most of the companies that would be called to subscribe to numbers that are not included in the total, thereby getting their money both ways. I bet he shouted 'eureka' very loudly!!!

Sorry, you have missed the point.

e.g. It can be cheaper to call an 0870 number from a mobile (using O2 PAYG Orginal tariff as an example) Mon-Fri during the daytime than it costs to call a geographical number.

Also what is the difference calling an O2 UK mobile than calling a T-Mobile UK number from a BT landline? They cost different amounts.

I'm not defending anyone. I'm just stating that 0870 numbers are not premioum rate; all premium rate numbers start 09.

An 0870 number is a number translation service, and as with most services you have to pay
Last edited by dawson : 03-12-2006 at 14:19

Sorry 'Dawson', but the hole you're digging for yourself is getting bigger by the minute.

I don't know why you find this so hard to understand, Dawson.

0870 numbers are premium numbers because you have to pay a premium to use them.

It really is that simple.

Yes, a call to a mobile phone usually commands a premium, but, by and large, people accept that because the mobile phone companies have to provide a great deal of extra infrastructure to handle mobile calls.

On the other hand, there is no need for 0870 numbers, we're all perfectly capable of dialing the underlying geographical number. so the premium for these numbers is a giant rip off.

Just to try and make sure it's sunk in: 0870 numbers are premium numbers because you have to pay a premium to call them.

There, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Whilst I agree 0870 numbers are a rip-off I do believe the pricing structure changed recently making them cheaper.

Using your definition of a "premium rate number" you would also have to include 0845 numbers as is costs extra to phone them as they cannot be taken as inclusive calls in a package or taken as free calls on mobiles etc.

What you also have to remember is that profits made from 0870 and 0845 numbers are used to help pay for staff to run them. If companies stopped using these numbers then they will just charge you some other way.

You're partly right.

Yes, 0845 numbers are also premium numbers, because you pay a premium to call them, but AFAIA , none of the money sees its way back to the company that is using them.

For the 0870 numbers, you've hit the nail right on the head. The companies get a a premium to help pay their costs (i.e. increase their profits).

However, if you look at the cost of a 10 minute phone call to, for example, book a holiday with a holiday company, you will be paying a premium of at least £0.70 of which a maximum of £0.30 goes to the company concerned. So from your premium, less than half goes to defray operating costs.

What the money is used for, is, anyway, largely irrelevant. You still have to pay the premium.

I really don't know why people waste their time trying to argue that black is white.

You have to pay a premium rate to call the number hence, by definition, it's a premium rate number.

For 0845 numbers, the company does recieve a small amount, don't know the figures, but it is a lot less than 0870 numbers.

B

I remember checking it out, and the two or three companies I looked at didn't pay the end user company anything. Some might, I suppose.

Here's an example of a Police Force using an 0845 number which generates approximately 0.25p per minute. However one could argue in this case it may be sensible. However should you want to speak to your local station you will most often find it impossible.

PS Para 10.
Last edited by jim4bb : 04-12-2006 at 10:19

I'm afraid companies are doing there homework too as you will find alot of numbers now on saynoto0870 have been changed, I have also sent the site several numbers and so far non of these numbers have been added even though they are still in existence as alternatives.

That demonstrates exactly why 0870 numbers work!
The 0870 number is a number translation system that ports to a geographical number. However, as companies move, relocate, outsource to call centres etc, their geographical numbers change but the 0870 number stays the same - the company just request the existing 0870 number is ported to the new geographical number.

You can't do that with a geographical number if you have moved offices from say Bristol to Manchester. The only option BT give is to forward calls, which will cost the company/person you are calling money for the forwarded leg.

NTS services are great for customer service / warranty claims numbers printed in instruction manuals printed way in advance of sales or referred to months/years after the product is sold.

As regards the saynoto0870 site, the site used to not list numbers until they were verified by the site owners. Actually they were available via a separate link but over the weekend the 2 databases have now been amalgamated so your numbers should now be visible although they may still be shown as unverified.

It appears that as the site was becoming more popular it was becoming too much of a burden for the site owners to check all entries themselves, so it seems like they are now relying on others to confirm details before listing numbers as verified.

As for some of the numbers becoming out of date, that is probably inevitable based on the fact the site is now about 7 years old. I don't think it is because companies are deliberately changing their geographical numbers, just that they are moving location as I refer to at the beginning of this post. Any database such as that site relies on constant checking & updating and I don't think anyone would suggest that is something the site owner should do personally alone. If you know of any alternative numbers that no longer function, I am sure the site owner would welcome feedback on those specific numbers. There's a specific option to do so on their contact us page.
Last edited by dawson : 04-12-2006 at 11:28

Sorry but that is complete cobblers.

In 1964 - yes 1964 - the company I then worked for moved from Manchester City Centre to the outskirts of St Helens in Merseyside, and we kept our Manchester (DEAnsgate) numbers even then. This can still be done today.

The defence you put up for having 0870 numbers is cloud cuckoo land.

What did they do about the STD code?

You didn't need one. You just had to dial DEA 8411 and it went straight thru.

One of the companies I worked at had 020 8 numbers despite being based in Preston, so it can be got around anyway.

OFCOM's 03 code will also get round the moving around excuse - when that's introduced 0845 should be scrapped (or at least charged the same as 03) and 0870 should be named as premium rate IMHO.

http://www.out-law.com/page-6676

At work we use 0800 numbers, but have no problem publising the 0115 numbers they are mapped to to our employees (the only ones who use them) - basically because it's cheaper for us to get 0115 calls, and often cheaper for the person calling too.