I've no idea what the GPO managed to do 42 years ago, but as debated earlier here, BT cannot transfer a number in this century to a new premises (unless that new premises is served by the same local exchange).

As I previously mentioned, BT do offer a forwarding service but for that there the subscriber must pay the forwarded leg of the call.

More information on BT OOAL (out of area lines), their non-availability to new services for at least the past couple of years and its total withdrawal by the end of this month is available here:

http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/c....boo/00051.htm
Last edited by dawson : 04-12-2006 at 18:06

That's what I'd thought.

Say an 0870 cost 7p per minute to call. What exact cost overheads are there for that call to take place and for adequate resources to exist to resolve it? Let's assume the business you're calling is a contact centre, and aside from the call you pay, is a free service. So, for example:
- cost of maintaining the redirect (0870 number translation service), both line rental, and the actual call charge
- cost of maintaining the geographical number the 0870 redirects to (again, both line rental, and the call charge, depending on which exists)
- cost of maintaining any hardware and software to manage incoming call volumes, queues, and IVRs
- cost of paying the staff to answer the call
- cost of support staff, eg supervisors
- cost of hardware not involved in the call, eg PCs for call logging, intranets if fault diagnosis is needed, and their support staff

I don't know, or claim to know if that is ALL involved and any costs of the individual portions. However, one thing implies that these numbers will not make much for the company.

Let's assume a call centre worker is on minimum wage, which is around 4.60 ph.
1 minute of his time, to the company, is 460/60 p = 7.67 p.
If calling the number costs 7 p per minute, then that doesn't even cover the cost of the staff, and that's assuming that the company concerned gets ALL of the 7p to use freely, which they don't.

And I agree with Dawson btw.

This would be very interesting if you actually had any figures, but it's quite irrelevant.

A company can charge what it likes for its services, but the charging should be transparant. We're not debating whether the poor company if about to go down the tube because of call centre costs, we're debating whether people should have to pay a premium (which, surprisingly, a lot of people do not even realise they are doing) in order to, for example, buy something from an advert.


OK, so you think that a call which you have to pay a premium to make is not a premium rate call

It's not a premium rate call. If it was, it would begin 09 as per the ICSTIS guidelines which are part of the law. Now unless 8 suddenly equals 9 and someone's forgotten to tell me...

0870 and 0845 numbers were set up so that regardless of ones location the charges were the same, and were set in alignment with local and national call rates respectively. Since then, the phone companies have adjusted their call charges so that the rate is not as clear cut, in some cases genuine national rate/local rate numbers are included in call allowances, but the referrers aren't - so if one believes wrongly they are dialling something that's included then it turns out they're not... well that's their own fault for not reading their bill or knowing the cost of a number before they dial it.

As it stands a line is not a "premium rate call" if it is not classified as a premium rate line by ICSTIS; all these numbers begin 09 so your argument is nothing more than a moot point.

Well, Mr Chav, you use the definition that makes you happy, and I'm sure everyone else will use the definition with which they are most comfortable.

For myself, and virtually everyone I've ever discussed the matter with, the simple, everyday definition that a premium rate number is one you have to pay a premium to call will do very nicely.

You can let some faceless quango tell you what to call what, but I'll stick with the accepted workings of the English language.

Full circle!

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...30&postcount=6

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...2160&dict=CALD
Last edited by Heinz : 06-12-2006 at 09:27

Attaboy Heinz. I agree 101%

Define two things then.

1. The cost of a "normal" phone call.
2. The minimum cost of a call which, in your view, costs a "premium" to call.

No explanations, just two charges in pence per minute.

The cost of a normal UK 01/02 call is, for me, 0p/minute (using 1899 or 18185 during the day or Primus Saver Option 2 evenings and weekends).

Hence, an 0845 number is charged at premium rate because the cost is never less than 0.5p/minute despite the fact that dialling the 01/02 number to which it points would 'cost' me 0p/minute.
Last edited by Heinz : 06-12-2006 at 13:38

1. 4p per call (not per minute) via 18185 to a land line within the UK.

2. Anything above that.

1. 0p per minute
2. 0.5p per minute.

So to you, any call you have to pay for is premium rate?

So any call you make that isn't free is a premium rate number???

By that logic, calling a mobile phone is premium rate, calling a foreign country is premium rate......

B

The semantics of the word 'premium' or the phrase 'premium rate' are irrelevant. Calls to 0845 or 087x numbers route to standard 01/02 numbers but cost more than calls directly to the same 01/02 numbers.
Last edited by Heinz : 06-12-2006 at 14:39

That is because of peoples' billing plans though, as I said the costs were set up in direct alignment but that was prior to the phone companies giving 01/02 calls discounted and before things like free offpeak calls, friends and family etc.

ALL calls on my mobile phone are 25p per min, except for calls to the same network. 0845 and 0870 are 25p, the same. No difference.

Non-geographics are only dearer now because they haven't been reduced in alignment with the cost to call the equivalent numbers. Not because the cost has gone up.

People like you who persist in arguing that black is white really amuse me.

Let's take it step by step and see if we can't get it through to you at last.

1) Do you agree that when you dial a number and establish communication with someone else that is a call?

2) Do you agree that what you pay for that is the rate for the call?

3) Do you understand that when talking about charging, if one thing costs more than another similar thing, you are paying a premium for the one that costs more?

4) Can you understand that if any normal call you make costs, say 1p per minute, and any 0870 call you make costs, say, 7p per minute, then from (3) you are paying a premium to call the 0870 number?

OK, now put them all together and what do we have:

An 0870 number is a premium rate number.

That should be apparant to even the densest of folk.

Only if you are on a package that gives lower rates to 01/02 numbers (like BT Together)

There are other packages where it is cheaper at certain times to call 0870 numbers compared to 01/02 numbers (e.g. 02 PAYG original)

But comparing like with like and ignoring special package deals (like BT Together), calls to 0870 numbers are charged at the same rate as national rate calls to 01/02 numbers, at least with BT*.

i.e. for residential customers at the standard national rate.

7.91ppm Mon-Fri 6:00am - 6:00pm
3.95ppm Mon-Fri before 6:00am and after 6:00pm
1.50pmm Sat & Sun

(*prices for certain 0870 internet services as detailed previously differ)
Last edited by dawson : 06-12-2006 at 15:31

Well spotted.

You are quite correct.

To call a mobile you pay a premium rate because of the infrastructure that the mobile phone companies have to provide to allow mobile communication.

To call another country you pay a premium rate because you are using the telephone systems of two countries and an international connection.

To call an 0870/1 number, you are paying a premium rate so that the company you are calling can get a rake-off from the cost of your call.

Simple really, isn't it?

1) Do you agree that when you dial a number and establish communication with someone else that is a call? YES

2) Do you agree that what you pay for that is the rate for the call? YES

3) Do you understand that when talking about charging, if one thing costs more than another similar thing, you are paying a premium for the one that costs more? YES, but that is not a premium rate call

4) Can you understand that if any normal call you make costs, say 1p per minute, and any 0870 call you make costs, say, 7p per minute, then from (3) you are paying a premium to call the 0870 number? I understand what you say but surely paying 35ppm to an 01/02 call is a premium over the cheaper rate of 15ppm...and what if an 0800 number exists? Surely the logic follows that one is paying a premium to call an 01/02 number in those cases?

OK, now put them all together and what do we have:

An 0870 number is a premium rate number. No premium rate numbers start 09. Whether you are paying a premium depends on what you are comparing such calls with and on what tariff/special bundle I have already explained that an 01/02 number maybe charged at a premium to an 0870 number and even a freefone 0800 number - it depends what spin you want to put on it by choosing what tariff/bundle to apply.
Last edited by dawson : 06-12-2006 at 15:45

Once again, you seem to be deiberately missing the point.

Just because it is possible to find some suppliers that charge as much for geographical numbers as 0870 numbers does not mean that the 0870 number is not a premium number.

What it means is the supplier in question charges a premium over other suppliers!

Again, it's just a matter of simple English.

It would be easy to name a dozen suppliers who charge less than BT for geographical UK calls.

Thus, to use BT you need to pay a premium over the rate that most other suppliers charge.

The fact that you pay them a premium for normal calls in no way diminishes the fact that you also have to pay a premium to call 0870 numbers and that furthermore, you cannot escape that premium by changing suppliers.

No, the standard rate with BT to call an 0870 number is the same rate as it costs to call a national rate 01/02 number - you are the one choosing the special tariffs to substantiate your claims

I only do so to show you the opposite can apply by choosing alternative traiffs, but the standard rate is the same for an 0870 number as it is a national rate 01/02 number.

I do not deny and never have done that those customers on BT Together obtain a special price for their calls to 01/02 numbers (and indeed a special price to 0870 numbers which is higher than that to call 01/02 numbers on that tariff but lower than the standard rate to call 0870 numbers)
Last edited by dawson : 06-12-2006 at 15:54

No, Dawson, that is only the case for people who will allow a quango to override the normal rules of English.

0870 numbers are premium rate numbers because you always have to pay a premium over standard numbers to call them with most suppliers.

That you can find people who charge even more for any example you care to come up with changes not a thing.

0870 numbers are charged at a premium rate and part of that premium goes to the comany who is being called.

You and your frind chav can argue that black is white until you are blue in the face, but you'll only suceed in making yourself look more and more foolish.

Thanks Dawson. Glad you finally agree.

Dawson, I can call any 01/02 landline number thru BT in the evening for about 6p for a call lasting up to an hour. Please show me how I can call an 0870 number thru BT at the same time for the same price? It's impossible.

Just because BT charge an enormous premium over other suppliers for normal calls does not in any way help you make your case.

Even with BT, I think you are way out of date. I understood that everyone is on option 1 (or higher) now, no choice, and the per minute rate on that for geographical calls is way lower that the rate for 0870 numbers.

Which rather takes the wind out of your sails, doesn't it?

Can't you just admit defeat gracefully instead of trying to persue your ridiculous case beyond the realms of all reason?