I'm far from a fanboy on the good Doctor, but surely the BBC must have realized by now that Russell T Davies can't write for toffee.

I teach Creative Writing and if he'd given me that script I'd have thrown it back at him and told him to re-think it completely.

Every decent new Doctor episode is written by someone else, but still he gets to write the 'legacy' episodes.

Perhaps someone should send him some episodes of 'Heroes' or the early Chris Carter written episodes of 'X Files' and 'Millennium' to see how it really should be done.

Whatever his writing skills, RTD delivered 9 million viewers to BBC1 on Saturday evening.

(Remind me, how many people watch Heroes each week?

EDIT: I found out. It's 509,000. )
Last edited by Mickey S : 04-04-2007 at 16:36

Never seen any of them programmes you quoted ! But i do agree partly with what you are saying.

I used to slate RTD, but he did revive the show from nowhere. Maybe it would be nice to see him write series fillers, as it would be interesting to see, say Moffat etc. write a series finale / opener.

I must say though, i really can't imagine in the Tom Baker era, the Doctor releasing radiation by taking his shoes off, like Tennant did last saturday !!

All in all, it will be interesting to see how the series pans out, and as to whether RTD has taken on board past criticisms.

That's a lot for a non free to air channel. Quite impressive, really. I didn't mind the first episode of Who.

On a subscription channel, on a Monday, at 10pm, with virtually no advertising. Certainly no cross-channel adverts.

Are you being serious, Mickey? If the numbers were a mark of quality, then one could empirically demonstrate that Steven Gerrard's autobiography is a 'better' book than 'The Emperor's Children' by Claire Messud.

Personally, I thought it was a much better season opener than 'Rose 'and 'New Earth', but let's not over-state this.
Last edited by Histeria : 04-04-2007 at 17:00

Heroes - 16 million per week. The big surprise hit of the season. Only Ugly Betty is bigger in new shows this year. Remember Heroes hasn't premiered on BBC2 yet.

Are you going to suggest that Doctor Who is a better show than Heroes?

In terms of quality, heroes would most probably win (i've been following it from the US, it's great! )

I think the story and the script took a backseat to the direction of the overall show, i think this story was more about establishing a new character and creating that relationship than it was the events around it.

I dont normaly watch Dr Who, im much more a fan of Lost and Heroes type of stuff, but Dr Who didnt overwhelm me but neither did it sink below my expectations as i had none really.

Dr Who is family entertainment, which is some regards is a weakness, but i would really love to see writers and directors who can create shows which out do some of these really good American shows, right now im underwhelmed by the most recent attempts of Britsh made sci-fi TV.

As I just stated on another thread, I'm on final warning with regards to discussing downloads and bittorrent, with the Mods, so I'll simply say I follow it by that method too and it really is the best pure genre show since 'The X Files'

Have to say the time travel aspect of Heroes ( which is really the only direct storywise comparison valid ) so far has been nowhere near as good as DW in the writing - it's full of the sort of plot holes that RTD gets lambasted for but somehow when it's Heroes it's 'the way the show works' or 'it all gets explained later'

Tbh I would say Heroes and RTD scripts of DW are about the same level as far as storytelling 'quality' but the difference is DW gets better , so far Heroes just keeps plodding along
Last edited by Dangerman : 04-04-2007 at 17:38

Thought that was one of the best efforts from the pen of RTD meself

I think episode 17 of Heroes was one of the most impressive sci-fi episode ive seen in a very long time, in fact i think the last 3 episodes before the break were amazing and really opened up the story and left people thinking.

Dr Who lacks depth and is a bit of fun, i dont think the 2 shows can compare really, partly because Dr Who is a family show and Heroes is more orientated for an adult audience, which is why i think BBC2 is going to ruin it when it ships to the main channels.

I think Russell is a pretty awful writer - esp. when he tries to be political or religious or philosophical ( the Doctor's ranting in New Earth was so bad I didn't watch again till Girl In The Fireplace caught my attention with those clockwork villians ) - but it's still a fun show and David Tennant is a great doctor. I also love Martha Jones, and her family, although some of the acting was dreadful, and RTD loves to pile cliche on cliche. Hopefully nothing in this series will be as crap as 'Love and Monsters', 'Fear Her' and that one set in the 1950s.

I'm watching on sci-fi so I'm still waiting for these 'wonderful episodes' to start , it all seems very superficial so far , almost the 'usual American teen angst' stuff with cheerleader being the most important job in the world.
I've never really felt Heroes has been particularly adult - it all seems too stylised and glossy , a bit too 'L.A.' to show proper depth while DW can vary in tone from the childish ( L&M ) to something that deals in a more adult manner ( Empty Child, Satan Pit, Girl In Fireplace ) without adding in the adult scenes of gore that Heroes uses to 'prove' it's for adults

As I have not read either book i can not say who is the best writer. As far as I know Mr Gerrard might be the greatest writer ever.

PS off the topic totally I enjoyed Dr who ;0)

LOL. Rather good with a football though! In retrospect, perhaps he could write this Season's Finale of Doctor Who, it gotta be better than whatever RTD has planned.

Only when he writes in the centre of the page - when he moves over to the right , the balance of the story is weakened

Heroes is the best TV coming out of the US at the moment and is a huge success over there - when it gets some proper advertising and airtime over here I predict it will go the same way. It's a crime it's not shown up on Channel 4's primetime slot yet. Dr Who's great fun and I enjoy the episodes - but they don't even get close to the intelligent storytelling of a show like Heroes. Dr Who episodes often have clever little concepts, but they are rarely thought through properly and the character work is particularly shoddy - but it's not that type of program. It's a situational series - each episode based around a new alien/supernatural occurrence. They have tried to put in more solid themes and character building, but mostly it just tries to rip off Buffy or Angel (Torchwood in particular)

Like I said - the program is enjoyable fun. It's just not the cream of program making.

what you seem to be forgetting is that RTD is aiming doctor who at an entirely different audience to the shows you mention, millennium, heroes etc. Doctor who is written in such a way that it can be enjoyed by 5 year olds and 50 year olds alike, and everyone in between. This is, of course, open to questioning, but as it stands that is the demographic for the show and that is who it is being written for.

If you teach creative writing then surely you must realise that 'Smith and Jones' wasn't a lesson in sci-fi writing but an introduction to a new character, and to be a fast paced fun story, an episode that succeeded in it's intention. Are you looking at the script only in terms of sci-fi? In the terms of a faced paced, humorous episode I cant see how you come to the conclusion that it failed, saying how things SHOULD be written is not very creative is it? Should all black humour be written in the Style of John Irving? Should all drama be written in the style of Dennis Potter? of course not, but for some reason it appears that sci-fi has to be written in the style of Chris Carter.

X-files and Millennium are two entirely different shows than Dr Who in their concept and style, as someone who teaches creative writing I would have thought you would have seen this rather obvious difference.
Last edited by CAMERA OBSCURA : 04-04-2007 at 18:48

I think Peter specificaly does come over with all the teenage angst, despite being in his late 20's, but i think people are soon going to become quite impressed with Peter *walks away before a spoiler comes out*.

American culture is diferent than that of British culture and over their alot of middleclass families encourage their children to do things like cheerleading as these activities can help you get into a better university once you leave school, which is why students take these type of things important and Claire is no diferent, but Claire is one of the more interesting characters as time has gone by though again youll have to wait and see what events occure around her and the others.

I dont think the gore scenes are what makes Heroes for adults, i think some of the themes they do assume the audience are able to understand them without having to explain them in depth, but also the pace is very much that of an adult show it doesnt force the pace quicker because the audience needs it instead it adds things to the scenes which the careful viewer will notice.

Nothing wrong with Dr Who i can sit down and watch it fair enough but it doesnt blow my mind and is very predictable, ive never been shocked by a Dr Who show, and personaly i like shows i watch to shock me every now and again and throw up a few curve balls.

I also dont think the 2 shows really are in the same region of entertainment really which is why they both have certain strengths and weakness and then people will like one more than the other or even hate one and love the other, personal preference and that.

Errm. Due to be on BBC2, innit?

K

'Smith & Jones' was the best Russell T Davies episode since series 1. He now knows exactly how to write for Tennant. But I don't get why people slag him off so much. How can you rip him off for the greatness of 'The End Of The World', 'Bad Wolf/The Parting Of The Ways', 'Tooth & Claw', 'Doomsday', 'The Christmas Invasion', all wonderful episodes. I can't think of any episode of his I particularly dislike, unlike certain episodes by other writers like 'Rise Of The Cybermen', 'The Idiot's Lantern' and 'Fear Her'.

Out of the 15 or so episodes he's penned for the series he's done a bloody good job.

Fair enough , you can't include a spoiler but wouldn't you agree that once you get to adulthood , things like cheerleader are seen as the superficial roles that they are rather than a route to world peace - 'Save the cheerleader, save the world' is just the sort of pretentious nonsense that even the most ardent RTD 'fanboy' wouldn't let him get away with

But they aren't dealing with anything in depth ( so far anyway ) , it's all been superficial ( or are we talking 'Lost-style' viewers make up the plot as we go along ? ). The pace is slow , 5/6 episodes ago we had a nuclear explosion which may or may not still be coming but we do know that fore knowledge of this has brought about dozens of changes in the timeline none of which have been addressed yet - again DW is heavily criticised for not fully realising the 'time travel science' that it has established over the last 40 years while Heroes hasn't bothered with any science it's just said 'Hiro can bend the space-time continuum - end of'.

Fair enough , I don't dislike Heroes either - it's one of the few shows I'll watch again to make sure I haven't missed anything and hasn't started boring me yet like some of it's couterparts but I haven't seen any real shocks in so far except that sub plot resolutions have been far simpler than I had expected

I agree , though as you'll have noticed on this forum any two shows can and will be compared. One comparison I would make is that both shows haven't confined themselves to specific areas of sci-fi therefore have given themselves plenty of scope to develop - if Heroes can tighten things up a bit it could be as long lasting as DW , otherwise I suspect it's just the latest flavour of the month