A useful, quick to read article on black people in Elizabethan England can be found here.

Hopefully it will clarify why Martha being black is not likely to be worthy of comment for Shakespeare or his contemporaries (such that it's hard to know just how many black people lived in London as documents rarely thought it something to mention).

Though in general they would be fairly low down the social ladder (though there are reports of black people in posotions that would now be considered middle class - and one or two possible wives/husbands and kept mistresses) it is complete balderdash to suggest that Shakespeare and his contemporaries would not have associated with free black people in London.

Lest we forget too - the African slaves were not enslaved for being 'black' ( term applied by the Elizabethans to most non-Christian cultures - African, Indian, even the relatively fair-skinned people of what we now consider the Middle East) but for being available, non-Christian and primitive. More than a few second and third generation blacks (descended from slaves) were free, educated and Christianised - and had trades, or were paid servants or were even business people.

That's without even mentioning the black woman that Willie wrote sonnets about.

You have obviously never read 'Merchant of Venice', Shakespeare's subtle outcry against anti-semitism in an incredibly racist Europe. Racism was worse then than it is now, so don't say its only a recent invention.

I am sure that is the case and not all servants (or slaves) would look like the stereotypical image of someone in shackles or impoverished. The trusted servants of the very rich would be well dressed and well educated individuals. Going back to last series and the French court, there is every reason to believe that a royal court would play host to visitors of noble status from other countries.

Seeing the Doctor with a black companion might raise a few eyebrows a few centuries ago, but I don't know that it would be so outrageous it would need to be commented on. No more than why her clothes don't seem right, or having surprisingly good teeth and plucked eyebrows and all of the rest of it.

Some kind of passing reference might be fitting, in much the same way as Queen Victoria commented on Rose's clothes, but it isn't what Doctor Who is about.

Exactly.

I think marbles raises an interesting point. I remember in the Michael Crichton's recent novel Timeline, one of the female characters worried about how she would be treated in medieval France. She thought that if she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, she could be assaulted or killed and no-one apart from her fellow time travelers would bat an eyelid. The film glossed over the subject.

In the GURPS role playing manual for time travel adventures, it says that gamers should careful think about the ethnic origins of their characters when preparing adventures because only a few hundred years ago, outside large cities and ports, the people in most areas of the world were pretty homogeneous and even facial features and hair colour, never mind skin colour, could stand out.

So yes, in a way Dr Who shouldn't ignore such issues but the problem is that they could get in the way of the fun story lines.

You're wrong in that assumption. The French loved and still love anything seen as exotic and Black or other ethnic races were seen as exotic and were invited into French Courts and parties for decoration. Still slaves but at least they got to join in without being servants.

Well I'm certainly learning a lot from this thread so thanks for that, it was just a brief discussion my party had while watching the episode that I remembered upon seeing the thread...

Personally I think more comment will be made about her modern attire than her race....but we won't know until Saturday I guess...

This is true as time passes from the mid 16th century onwards, more so from the mid 17th century as the slave numbers increase. Try to find the free black people living in London in the late 16th century.

What will be more interesting is the depiction of lower class English people towards Martha. Although the upper classes had black servants (And also had them as curiosities) it's not true to say there was mixing between whites and blacks lower down.

Sorry - but you are, at the very least, out of date - as more recent studies of the available documents from the period suggest that there were more black people living amongst the commoners of London, even as early as the start of the 17th century, than was previously thought.

Incorrect, unless you are thinking purely about docks. But even then the communities would be separate. There has been an attempt in some quarters to paint those eras as more enlightened than later ones: the truth is that we had racism. We even had QE I proclaiming that blacks were not worthy of living in England and should be removed from the realm (it was never carried out, but did pander to some common feelings of the time.)

Racism hasn't always existed. For example, white and black people were equals in the Roman Empire.

Racism was created and spread by the 18th century slave traders. Before that, things were little different from the way they are now.

Yes, you had white slaves in the Roman empire.

And black emperors.

And green bogeys.

During the 19th century some of the black people in the UK were even married to white women – once we officially recognised that Slavery was illegal in Britain, those people their partners and children were shipped off to Freetown in Sierra Leone and most of the people on board died during the journey.

Of course by then a lot of people would have “passed for white” so there has been black Africans and Americans/Caribbean’s in Britain since we got involved in slavery. There are probably white people all over Britain who have recent African/slave ancestry from as little as 5 generations ago and aren't aware of it.

Torchwood dealt with racism well in the "Captain Jack Harkness" episode where Tosh is transported back to WW2 Wales. Obviously, being at war with Japan made the racist feeling more overt and worth pointing out, but it was still dealt with fairly well I thought. And briefly, so as not to get in the way of a good story.

It would go one or two ways - If Martha was bullied in Elizabethan England/New York during the series, little school kids might;

a) copy the bullies and bully black pupils

b) feel astonished at the bullying on the show and feel sorry for the black pupils.

So, I think it'd be best if any racism, however mild, was left out of the show. Sometimes you have to decide whats historically accurate and whats entertaining.

I think they should make a passing mention to the race issue (not yell racial slurs at her).

I love the fact that people on ds (seem to) believe we live in utopia.

Hold on to your hats, we will probably find out tomorrow...

Hold on to your hats, we will probably find out tomorrow...

Mind you, didn't PT get away with saying he was a small travelling show at one point? Show people have always been allowed to be a little out of the ordinary

That's a very good article, though I didn't read it all. Didn't Shakespeare even write about Othello: The Moor of Venice... As far as know, "Moor" meant black person, unless it meant chief constable or something. An excellent modern day Othello was produced in the US with Othello being the black New York Chief of Police, being married to the white desdemona, and Iago (very well played by our own Christopher Ecclestone, by the way) his second in command:

http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0275577/

I love some of these modern day Shakespeare adaptations, and this one's one of the best I've seen.
Last edited by pammi_i : 06-04-2007 at 23:21

But you're OK with all the 'Classic' episodes that were Earth based, not to mention the whole season (at least) that Jon Pertwee's Doctor spent on Earth working with UNIT & the Brigadier? Yes, in an ideal, budget-free universe, almost every episode should be set somewhere other than (our) present day UK, but we don't live in that universe so please get over it! :yawn:

As to how Black People are/will be received by the citizens of days gone by, I suspect that it won't be made much of an issue. Just as I'm sure that Martha turning up at Shakespear's Globe in jeans, t-shirt, maroon leather jacket, not to mention the modern hairstyle, make-up, and bright white teeth won't cause the stir amongst locals that I'm sure it would've done had it actually happened.

Not to mention possibly have been labelled a witch and summarily burned at the stake herself. Good grief this inane...Almost like taking monty python and the holy grail as a historical document.

Well something happened with Shakespeare and Martha there. Happy?