[(Mitch)]

Well, do you remember VHS and Betamax? What format is most likely to win thes war - HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?

[WebbyFoxes]

HD-DVD.
Blu-ray wont succeed because people have HD TV's and so with the HD in front of DVD, its more likley that it will succeed than the blu-ray nonsense

[ntlhellworld]

Quote:

Originally Posted by (Mitch)

Well, do you remember VHS and Betamax? What format is most likely to win thes war - HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?

Well Betamax was a sony format, so is blue-ray. That makes blue ray the Betamax of the high def world - it may be technically superior, but its doomed from the start.

-Chris

[bobcar]

It may be both if dual format machines take off. Or it might be neither for a while, I think we need to get machines into supermarkets at £50 or below for either to really take off and that's probably a couple of years away.

[nadiasantos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebbyFoxes

HD-DVD.
Blu-ray wont succeed because people have HD TV's and so with the HD in front of DVD, its more likley that it will succeed than the blu-ray nonsense

HD simply stands for high definition.

Blu-Ray playsback on HD tv's just as well as HDDVD.

Unfortunately at the moment BR is way ahead with more studio support and a far better release schedule,but the PS3 is the only affordable BR player so once the gamers have lost the novelty of buying BR discs it will be down to the masses to buy standalone players ,and there aren't any from BR that can be said to be a mass market price

[nadiasantos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobcar

It may be both if dual format machines take off. Or it might be neither for a while, I think we need to get machines into supermarkets at £50 or below for either to really take off and that's probably a couple of years away.

Dual format players for under £50 a couple of years away.

Highly unlikely.
DVD was a huge success but players were still £250+ 3 years after it arrived,so a niche product like HDDVD and BR are likely to remain unaffordable for a long time.

The only DF player in the US is $1400 and cannot even access HDDVD features properly.

[smcbeath]

looks like we are no nearer a winner yet
http://uk.theinquirer.net/?article=38801

[Chris Simon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nadiasantos

HD simply stands for high definition.

Blu-Ray playsback on HD tv's just as well as HDDVD.

Yes. But I think what he's saying is that people will buy HD-DVD over Blu-ray because it has HD in it and people will associate that with their HDTV. They will understand what HD-DVD is, but Blu-ray doesn't mean anything.

[niall campbell]

hang off and get a dual player. I dont think it will be long before they drop down in price as everyone got a dvd player SO what are the manufactors going to do to get us to buy them?

[charmed1987]

as someone else as posted the hd-dvd/blu-ray wont be won for a while and i now own a hd-dvd and blu-ray player the blu ray discs look a little bit better in my opino due to the fact that the ps3 has got a hdmi and the 360 hasnt but im sure once the elite 360 is released that will be corrected and really it depends on what films you like

[GazWhitu]

HD-DVD have release the designs to the mass market to get cheaper hardware made. some people say this is desperation, i think this is opening it up to the cheap end market, making it more available and affordable.

I personally have the 360 HD-DVD and think the quality of the new format is great! i cannot compare to BR, so cannot comment. however, i have no plans to go out and buy BR although depending on what films are released on which format, i may change my mine in 12-18mths.

i think the big battle will be the downloading of movies and such. i think this will destory the media disk. MS are moving ahead v quickly on 360 marketplace with some good titles out. however, these are only rentals and can only keep them for 14days or 24hrs post watching them before they self delete!

i think disk will have a place for years to come as people like me like to collect the movies and watch them again. my 360 has been hammered since i set it up as a media extender and stream any video to it. more TV series have been watched in this manner than through the TV!

[GazWhitu]

oh, and the other thing in HD-DVD favour is that there is no region coding! Disks from the US are cheaper with a wider range!!!

[nadiasantos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GazWhitu

oh, and the other thing in HD-DVD favour is that there is no region coding! Disks from the US are cheaper with a wider range!!!

Although thats definitely in favour for HDDVD ,no region coding wont help if the selection of titles is piss poor like it is now.

The link in a post further up sums it up,although it says nothing that many of us did not already know.

It does not matter whether BR or HDDVD waffle on about who is winning in sales--the actual numbers are very low and will remain so for the forseeable future.

Neither format will last long enough with current sales figures for the dual format players to reach mass market prices.

By the time any dual format player reaches the sub£400 price range , BR and HDDVD will have had to do something drastic to still be in existence

[GazWhitu]

totally agree, pal!

I have bought 3 movies since last week and already am struggling for new titles that i've yet to see or dont own on DVD.

when the titles become available on release of all platforms at the same time then that is when this battle might take off... until then, who knows!

Have tonight been playing with the Xbox 360 marketplace and downloading titles. There are a good few titles, although they are majority Paramount films. It does seem that involved are holding back!

[Catbed]

I am not buying any system that can't play any film I might want to watch. So before that happens either:
1/ these idiots who didn't learn from the Betamax/VHS fiasco will settle their differences, or
2/ one of them will win, or
3/ dual format players will become cheap enough.

Talk about shooting themselves in the foot.
And then there's DRM. That's the other foot and both kneecaps

OK, Rant over ...

[charmed1987]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GazWhitu

totally agree, pal!

I have bought 3 movies since last week and already am struggling for new titles that i've yet to see or dont own on DVD.

when the titles become available on release of all platforms at the same time then that is when this battle might take off... until then, who knows!

Have tonight been playing with the Xbox 360 marketplace and downloading titles. There are a good few titles, although they are majority Paramount films. It does seem that involved are holding back!

im currently buying the films i like and selling mt dvd version of it and the past week ive brought 7 blu-ray films and 10 hd-dvd

oh gazwhitu there are currently plans underway to region code hd-dvd's so it sounds like no more imports

[Methuselah Now]

People keep dismissing Blu-ray (or saying they're going to be fence-sitters), but that really is borne out of dogma and lacking both fact and history.


For the fence-sitters, while they wait around, 100,00's of blu-ray players are being given away with this new console (see wintel).


Hd-dvd supporters can mainly only point to the low cost as it's advantage, yet that is the only reason for its creation; changing a blu-laser on an old production-line helps that, where as blu-ray actually uses real technical avances from the last 15 years since the dvd-format was settled on.
HD-DVD's creative motive was only for the benefit of short-termist manufacturers, it has been to prevent the need for brand new production lines, so that the same legacy equipment in the different manufacturing work-flows as dvd can continue to be used, but that suggests that new equipment wouldn't be needed anyway, or lines replaced or upgraded -pre-posterous.

Wholesale prices for PS3's are already in the sub-£300 range anyway; and as blu-ray has the largest amount of content being created for it, those new lines are going to be working at super-efficiency as it is.

Blu-ray is dismissed as sony's format, which is only half-true.
All main/modern optical media is rooted in the patents that Sony and Philips created for CD's (-long story, but those two were also involved via polygram/columbia records).

Sony, less than philips, had a neurosis about betamax for 20 years, they have learnt almost every single lesson there is to learn about introducing new mass-media mediums.
Microsoft only got involved with the x-box in the 2000's; by 1992, when sony was working on ps1, they were already aiming for where we nearly are.

In games, they own multiple studios, they haven't paid for exclusives because they don't believe they need to, and continue to be a lead-format.
In movies, they own stakes in a few, but substantially both the whole mgm library, the Columbia/sony/tri-star one, all they're TV rights; and not forgetting the music interests, as well as the different delivery infrastructures (physical and networked).

Blu-ray has the widest licensing platform across all the largest hardware and software providers; they already envision blu-ray for under £100 by the commiodity-manufacturers.
They don't make loads on the hardware, so it's not in their interest in delaying this for long. and everyone prefers volume.


Soon enough, Blu-ray disks are going to be released within a few weeks of their cinema releases, or at the same time as their dvd releases, with proper mainstream new movies, not the current range of library content, from the full roster of big (and small) movies.

Do people remember when new dvd's sold for £25 or so, and how about the drives/players costing £500+/-.
Every generation, things happen faster, and lessons are learned.

I haven't even mentioned blu-ray being the standardised format for PC's and the implcations of that re: volume and ubiquity (who are the biggest pc-sellers/manufactureres?).


[People say that in the future all media will be distributed, and media such as blu-ray might not evan last that long; yeah, right, tell that to the world that has no water, let alone electricity and broadband networks]


I'm not some silly fanboy, but all the above is based on stark comparison between the formats.



Yours kindly,


MN

[webbie]

I don't think Sony learnt much from the Betamax wars. Look at minidisc, microMV camcorders and now Blu-Ray. It's interesting that Microsoft support HD-DVD. I don't care who wins, but I'm not buying a player until it's obvious which one will see it through (if any). Having said that, I saw a ps3 in action and the graphics were stunning...

[JimRockford]

Quote:

Originally Posted by (Mitch)

Well, do you remember VHS and Betamax? What format is most likely to win thes war - HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?

It impossible to say right now. We wont have a clearer picture for a few more months.

[bobcar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nadiasantos

Dual format players for under £50 a couple of years away.

Highly unlikely.
DVD was a huge success but players were still £250+ 3 years after it arrived,so a niche product like HDDVD and BR are likely to remain unaffordable for a long time.

The only DF player in the US is $1400 and cannot even access HDDVD features properly.

Yes but DVD was a bigger jump. My 2 years was almost certainly too optimistic because it requires a kick start to get going. Once (if?) the kick start happens then they will get down to that price in around a couple of years. Of course the kick start may never happen, it may just drift around until the cost of high definition DVD naturally gets close to that of standard definition anyway but that could take up to 5 years.

[nadiasantos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Methuselah Now

People keep dismissing Blu-ray (or saying they're going to be fence-sitters), but that really is borne out of dogma and lacking both fact and history.


For the fence-sitters, while they wait around, 100,00's of blu-ray players are being given away with this new console (see wintel).


Hd-dvd supporters can mainly only point to the low cost as it's advantage, yet that is the only reason for its creation; changing a blu-laser on an old production-line helps that, where as blu-ray actually uses real technical avances from the last 15 years since the dvd-format was settled on.
HD-DVD's creative motive was only for the benefit of short-termist manufacturers, it has been to prevent the need for brand new production lines, so that the same legacy equipment in the different manufacturing work-flows as dvd can continue to be used, but that suggests that new equipment wouldn't be needed anyway, or lines replaced or upgraded -pre-posterous.

Wholesale prices for PS3's are already in the sub-£300 range anyway; and as blu-ray has the largest amount of content being created for it, those new lines are going to be working at super-efficiency as it is.

Blu-ray is dismissed as sony's format, which is only half-true.
All main/modern optical media is rooted in the patents that Sony and Philips created for CD's (-long story, but those two were also involved via polygram/columbia records).

Sony, less than philips, had a neurosis about betamax for 20 years, they have learnt almost every single lesson there is to learn about introducing new mass-media mediums.
Microsoft only got involved with the x-box in the 2000's; by 1992, when sony was working on ps1, they were already aiming for where we nearly are.

In games, they own multiple studios, they haven't paid for exclusives because they don't believe they need to, and continue to be a lead-format.
In movies, they own stakes in a few, but substantially both the whole mgm library, the Columbia/sony/tri-star one, all they're TV rights; and not forgetting the music interests, as well as the different delivery infrastructures (physical and networked).

Blu-ray has the widest licensing platform across all the largest hardware and software providers; they already envision blu-ray for under £100 by the commiodity-manufacturers.
They don't make loads on the hardware, so it's not in their interest in delaying this for long. and everyone prefers volume.


Soon enough, Blu-ray disks are going to be released within a few weeks of their cinema releases, or at the same time as their dvd releases, with proper mainstream new movies, not the current range of library content, from the full roster of big (and small) movies.

Do people remember when new dvd's sold for £25 or so, and how about the drives/players costing £500+/-.
Every generation, things happen faster, and lessons are learned.

I haven't even mentioned blu-ray being the standardised format for PC's and the implcations of that re: volume and ubiquity (who are the biggest pc-sellers/manufactureres?).


[People say that in the future all media will be distributed, and media such as blu-ray might not evan last that long; yeah, right, tell that to the world that has no water, let alone electricity and broadband networks]


I'm not some silly fanboy, but all the above is based on stark comparison between the formats.



Yours kindly,


MN

It does not really matter if what you say is true.
While there are 2 competing formats HD discs of any kind will remain a niche product.

Also against both formats is the need for many to get a new tv and also that the improvement between dvd and hd discs is nothing compared to the increase in quality that came from VHS and even LD to DVD.

As the link earlier in the thread shows,sales of both formats are pretty poor .
But the main problem is that unless something significant happens then the situation will not change.

[wullien]

availability is going to be a key factor an low and behold blockbuster video are renting blueray discs just now so .............

[It's only me]

If ether formats gonna succeed then they both need to release more upto date movies ,just look in HMV ect and the selection is piss poor to be honest, apart from 007 theres not one film i would buy
thats got to hold sales back!!

[Methuselah Now]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nadiasantos

It does not really matter if what you say is true.
While there are 2 competing formats HD discs of any kind will remain a niche product.

Also against both formats is the need for many to get a new tv and also that the improvement between dvd and hd discs is nothing compared to the increase in quality that came from VHS and even LD to DVD.

As the link earlier in the thread shows,sales of both formats are pretty poor .
But the main problem is that unless something significant happens then the situation will not change.

nadiasantos, agree with much of what you say.

I think they're going to wait a few years before the sub-£50 players to cover costs and streamline everything.

I reckon that all the recent changes in the AV sector are based on the eco-system, that's why the big electronic companies have got involved, hdtv, digital tv, flat, blu-ray, the aim is that you have to move to a quicker cycle to have everything -just see how many people have upgraded to flat-panel when their crtv's are still working.

What will people do when less and less dvd's are being manufactured, just as happened with the availability of vhs tapes.

the historic worry about 2 formats and staying niches' while they exist, but that's the whole point of the blu-ray strategy.
With PS3 and the PC's, there's no need to make a choice, it's already available to you, and who doesn't want to buy future-proofed content.

It's all these pieces working together, to re-inforce the proposition of Blu-ray. No different from HD-DVD attempting the same, but The Blu-ray alliance simply has more of the pieces together and bigger range of partners.

[Alex Oughton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Methuselah Now

People keep dismissing Blu-ray (or saying they're going to be fence-sitters), but that really is borne out of dogma and lacking both fact and history.

You sound like you're suggesting that a fence-sitter is someone who has also only dismissed Blu-ray for historical reasons. That to me sounds like you're suggesting that Blu-ray is the only correct choice, and anyone who has picked HD-DVD, or neither format, is wrong and that only your decision is right.

Quote:

For the fence-sitters, while they wait around, 100,00's of blu-ray players are being given away with this new console (see wintel).

They're not given away. The price is included in the substantial price tag for playstation 3.

Quote:

Hd-dvd supporters can mainly only point to the low cost as it's advantage, yet that is the only reason for its creation; changing a blu-laser on an old production-line helps that, where as blu-ray actually uses real technical avances from the last 15 years since the dvd-format was settled on.

Not sure where to begin with this. If you think that the only difference between DVD and HD-DVD is a blue laser, you are seriously mistaken. Both formats have benefited in the same way from technical advances. They've just gone down very different routes.

Quote:

HD-DVD's creative motive was only for the benefit of short-termist manufacturers, it has been to prevent the need for brand new production lines, so that the same legacy equipment in the different manufacturing work-flows as dvd can continue to be used, but that suggests that new equipment wouldn't be needed anyway, or lines replaced or upgraded -pre-posterous.

Wholesale prices for PS3's are already in the sub-£300 range anyway; and as blu-ray has the largest amount of content being created for it, those new lines are going to be working at super-efficiency as it is.

I'm not entirely sure I understand your point here. But if I'm on the same page as you, then it's worth noting that "line efficiency" is only one factor. The cost per unit for Blu-ray discs is still higher than those for HD-DVD.

Quote:

Blu-ray is dismissed as sony's format, which is only half-true.
All main/modern optical media is rooted in the patents that Sony and Philips created for CD's (-long story, but those two were also involved via polygram/columbia records).

True.

Quote:

Sony, less than philips, had a neurosis about betamax for 20 years, they have learnt almost every single lesson there is to learn about introducing new mass-media mediums.
Microsoft only got involved with the x-box in the 2000's; by 1992, when sony was working on ps1, they were already aiming for where we nearly are.

Sony have released a considerable number of new formats over the years. Minidisc (and variants) and memory stick (and variants) spring to mind. I therefore don't think they're at all shy about releasing a new format.

As for the XBox comment, I'm confused. What's this got to do with the discussion?

Quote:

In games, they own multiple studios, they haven't paid for exclusives because they don't believe they need to, and continue to be a lead-format.
In movies, they own stakes in a few, but substantially both the whole mgm library, the Columbia/sony/tri-star one, all they're TV rights; and not forgetting the music interests, as well as the different delivery infrastructures (physical and networked).

Blu-ray has the widest licensing platform across all the largest hardware and software providers;...

Probably all true.

Quote:

...they already envision blu-ray for under £100 by the commiodity-manufacturers.

Hang on a second. Earlier weren't you complaining about HD-DVD trying to be cheap? Both camps obviously want cheap players. That's absolutely key. But in your view it's a sin for HD-DVD to be thinking this, and good that Blu-ray are?

Quote:

They don't make loads on the hardware, so it's not in their interest in delaying this for long. and everyone prefers volume.


Soon enough, Blu-ray disks are going to be released within a few weeks of their cinema releases, or at the same time as their dvd releases, with proper mainstream new movies, not the current range of library content, from the full roster of big (and small) movies.

Will be nice if true about home releases following so soon after theatrical releases (although, what's your source?). This will be true of all formats though, so doesn't really affect the discussion.

Quote:

Do people remember when new dvd's sold for £25 or so, and how about the drives/players costing £500+/-.
Every generation, things happen faster, and lessons are learned.

I haven't even mentioned blu-ray being the standardised format for PC's and the implcations of that re: volume and ubiquity (who are the biggest pc-sellers/manufactureres?).

Blu-ray is not the standardised format for PCs. Neither is.

Quote:

[People say that in the future all media will be distributed, and media such as blu-ray might not evan last that long; yeah, right, tell that to the world that has no water, let alone electricity and broadband networks]

You raise a valid point. But people in those places aren't very likely to buy either format really... or DVDs...

Quote:

I'm not some silly fanboy, but all the above is based on stark comparison between the formats.

Sorry, I think you are. Your argument is very heavily one-sided, and in some places inaccurate or misinformed.

Don't get me wrong, I am a self-confessed fan of HD-DVD (as you would have noticed by now). It would be foolish for me to claim objectivity here. But I wouldn't say that your argument was balanced either.

Whilst I am a user of HD-DVD, I recognise that there are considerable advantages to Blu-ray, and that there are many many happy users of the format. It's not the choice I personally made though, and it is the choice you made. That's fine.

So please don't read my response as me going on the HD-DVD offensive. Just trying to re-balance the debate a little.