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Blue Ray / HD DVD - Will they really take over from DVD?
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webbie
07-05-2007
The answer is "Yes".
gomezz
08-05-2007
Perhaps the pertinent question to ask is: When will new films no longer be made available on DVD? There is a huge user base of DVD players (both standalone and computer) out there which will not get replaced for many, many years. VoD and download services will also play their part here of course.
Gilbertoo
08-05-2007
Originally Posted by gomezz:
“Perhaps the pertinent question to ask is: When will new films no longer be made available on DVD? There is a huge user base of DVD players (both standalone and computer) out there which will not get replaced for many, many years. VoD and download services will also play their part here of course.”

Since inferior VHS material is still produced today, I'd say about 20 years!
yesparker
08-05-2007
Originally Posted by Gilbertoo:
“Obviously NOT my friend! HD-DVD & Blu-ray players are backward compatible so no need to replace all your DVD archive....so you'll still be able to play your old DVD's as well as HD content! Who knows, maybe some players will also upscale DVD content so maybe the quality will increase all round.....yes, no, maybe?

As I mentioned previously, most TV's available today are HD compatible so like it or not, the change will take place, whether or not entirely by the customers own choice remains to be seen (i.e. analogue switch off anyone?)”

Of course HD will replace dvd.

But so what if new players are backwards compatible.

Who's going to buy a Blu-Ray player with the intention of playing just dvd's?

Nobody.

And if you want to watch HD discs you must have either an LCD or plasma set-its that simple.

I had a Laserdisc player until 1998 then went for dvd as soon as I saw it.

But the drawbacks with HD discs are far more worrying.

Apart from the format war I don't want to put up with SD dross on an LCD for the sake of a few HD discs.

Sales figures already show what those of us with a bit of history in the home video formats knew,while the format war continues neither BR nor HDDVD are going to replace DVD.

Even ssuming Sky HD can succeed which it wont until ITV etc are on board, the format war must end before Joe Public is interested in replacing dvd collections.

And analogue switch off really has nothing to do with HD at all.

Forces people to watch in digital-nothing more
yesparker
08-05-2007
Originally Posted by Gilbertoo:
“Dual players already exist (Samsung, LG)....albeit quite expensive ones. Once more are launched, the price will start to fall.”

I don't think Samsung have a DF player yet -its simply been announced that they will be producing one.
Interesting that they announced a similar thing about 2 years ago but were shot down in flames by both HDDVD and BR camps who said they would not issue licences for a DF player.

The LG machine is not only too expensive it does not even support HDDVD to a high enough degree to make it worthwhile.

If you think that BR and HDDVD can co-exist side by side forever then I think you are mistaken.

Neither will have enough sales to last forever and neither will ever get enough sales while there are 2 formats.

The market requires a kick start from one camp or the other.

A "must have" release like Star Wars ,Indiana Jones,007 or similar could be enough ,but the Walmart story seemed to be the most likely to make any difference.

Even if the available title list remained as it is today,fill Tescos with enough £200 HDDVD players next week and BR as a movie format would be dead within months
yesparker
08-05-2007
Originally Posted by Gilbertoo:
“....so, going back to the original question, you do agree that HD will takeover from DVD...so forget all the peripheral stuff and simply say that you agree with me...”

The post you replied too already gave you the answer.

But its like saying colour will replace black and white or digital will replace analogue.

Any idiot knows that HD will replace SD.

But my opinion is that HDDVD (or BR) will not replace DVD until there is a format winner,and SD tv is not going to lose many viewers until there are a LOT more channels in HD with ITV/BBC an absolute necessity before HD installs become standard
yesparker
08-05-2007
Originally Posted by Gilbertoo:
“Since inferior VHS material is still produced today, I'd say about 20 years!”

Crikey,who still sells VHS?

More to the point who buys it?

Not including blank tapes of course
Gilbertoo
09-05-2007
Originally Posted by yesparker:
“Crikey,who still sells VHS?

More to the point who buys it?

Not including blank tapes of course”

It's mostly educational stuff, not so much films these days. I suppose lots of schools, colleges, nurseries, etc. still used VHS....
Gilbertoo
09-05-2007
Originally Posted by yesparker:
“I don't think Samsung have a DF player yet -its simply been announced that they will be producing one.
Interesting that they announced a similar thing about 2 years ago but were shot down in flames by both HDDVD and BR camps who said they would not issue licences for a DF player.

The LG machine is not only too expensive it does not even support HDDVD to a high enough degree to make it worthwhile.

If you think that BR and HDDVD can co-exist side by side forever then I think you are mistaken.

Neither will have enough sales to last forever and neither will ever get enough sales while there are 2 formats.

The market requires a kick start from one camp or the other.

A "must have" release like Star Wars ,Indiana Jones,007 or similar could be enough ,but the Walmart story seemed to be the most likely to make any difference.

Even if the available title list remained as it is today,fill Tescos with enough £200 HDDVD players next week and BR as a movie format would be dead within months”

Blimey, you really are gunning for me aren't you!!

I've never thought or suggested that BR & HDDVD can or will co-exist!!

I have merely confirmed that HD will takeover from DVD....I can't be bothered with all the if, buts, whens, etc. HD clearly will eventually takeover from DVD and that's all that matters....
Gilbertoo
09-05-2007
Originally Posted by yesparker:
“Of course HD will replace dvd.

But so what if new players are backwards compatible.

Who's going to buy a Blu-Ray player with the intention of playing just dvd's?

Nobody.

And if you want to watch HD discs you must have either an LCD or plasma set-its that simple.

I had a Laserdisc player until 1998 then went for dvd as soon as I saw it.

But the drawbacks with HD discs are far more worrying.

Apart from the format war I don't want to put up with SD dross on an LCD for the sake of a few HD discs.

Sales figures already show what those of us with a bit of history in the home video formats knew,while the format war continues neither BR nor HDDVD are going to replace DVD.

Even ssuming Sky HD can succeed which it wont until ITV etc are on board, the format war must end before Joe Public is interested in replacing dvd collections.

And analogue switch off really has nothing to do with HD at all.

Forces people to watch in digital-nothing more”

Right, the bit about analogue switch off was confirming that the consumer is sometimes forced into making a change and the same could happen with HD.....please read my posts properly!

Also, wasn't it recently announced that retailers will soon stop stocking audio cassettes? Yet more proof that the consumer is forced into making a change...
Dean1474
09-05-2007
Yes i recon one of them will..... No Doubt about it........
Catbed
09-05-2007
There is a huge difference between 'the consumer' as in "the majority of consumers in the UK" and 'the consumer' as in "me and my peronal wants, preferences and prejudices".

The "majority" class have a lot of power to avoid being 'forced' into something, but (as in Gilbertoo's example) most don't want audio cassettes any more, so they are disappearing. The same happened with domestic film formats and is happening with VHS and will eventually happen to SD-DVD. This will upset most of the "me" class who will complain bitterly, but ultimately fruitlessly. If there isn't a sizeable market for something makers won't want to build for it - game over.

As regards VHS, it isn't just educational stuff; there is a lot of special interest material around as well. Some is only now being made available on DVD, but because of low volumes it is 'burnt' on DVD recorders rather than pressed in a plant. This stuff isn't going away any time soon, so HD and SD formats, discs and programmes will be coexisting for a long time, even if new hardware isn't being built for some formats.
Gilbertoo
09-05-2007
Originally Posted by Catbed:
“There is a huge difference between 'the consumer' as in "the majority of consumers in the UK" and 'the consumer' as in "me and my peronal wants, preferences and prejudices".

The "majority" class have a lot of power to avoid being 'forced' into something, but (as in Gilbertoo's example) most don't want audio cassettes any more, so they are disappearing. The same happened with domestic film formats and is happening with VHS and will eventually happen to SD-DVD. This will upset most of the "me" class who will complain bitterly, but ultimately fruitlessly. If there isn't a sizeable market for something makers won't want to build for it - game over.

As regards VHS, it isn't just educational stuff; there is a lot of special interest material around as well. Some is only now being made available on DVD, but because of low volumes it is 'burnt' on DVD recorders rather than pressed in a plant. This stuff isn't going away any time soon, so HD and SD formats, discs and programmes will be coexisting for a long time, even if new hardware isn't being built for some formats.”

I completely agree. By the time the takeover truly happens, only the minority of consumers will be forced into making a change from DVD to HD discs...but that probably won't happen for a long, long time...
skrjones
11-05-2007
No, the problem of takeup due to the format split is going to mean that it is likely that it will be a new format that is unified that will win and take over from DVD.

DVD is a single format, was simple, gave a real upgrade to quality that people desired, and the pricepoint came down quickly enough to mean that it was cheap enough to buy with the shopping.
My first DVD cost £80, and I have three players not including my two PC's so for an HD format to win it would really mean that I have to change all of them including the TV's. Thats not going to happen quickly. I'm lucky that I can re-encode my DVD discs to other formats (I still use VCD's for some films) but the issue of DRM will mean that I wouldn't choose either.
Catbed
12-05-2007
Originally Posted by skrjones:
“No, the problem of takeup due to the format split is going to mean that it is likely that it will be a new format that is unified that will win and take over from DVD.”

Like happened with Betamax/VHS ...

Originally Posted by skrjones:
“My first DVD cost £80, and I have three players not including my two PC's so for an HD format to win it would really mean that I have to change all of them including the TV's. Thats not going to happen quickly.”

Not for you maybe, but most people only have one DVD player and main TV. Many are already buying HD ready TVs so will only have to buy an HD disc player to be HD capable. That can happen today, except for the format war

Originally Posted by skrjones:
“I'm lucky that I can re-encode my DVD discs to other formats (I still use VCD's for some films) but the issue of DRM will mean that I wouldn't choose either.”

Why would you reencode an SD DVD to HD format? HD players will be able to play SD discs.
OR
Why would you reencode an HD disc to SD? Just buy the SD if you don't already have it (no studio is going to not release stuff on SD any time soon - they want people to eventually buy both versions )
skrjones
13-05-2007
Originally Posted by Catbed:
“Like happened with Betamax/VHS ...

Not for you maybe, but most people only have one DVD player and main TV. Many are already buying HD ready TVs so will only have to buy an HD disc player to be HD capable. That can happen today, except for the format war

Why would you reencode an SD DVD to HD format? HD players will be able to play SD discs.
OR
Why would you reencode an HD disc to SD? Just buy the SD if you don't already have it (no studio is going to not release stuff on SD any time soon - they want people to eventually buy both versions )”

I can't quite believe you can misread everything I said.

I believe neither Bluray or HDDVD will take DVD out of the market, technology moves too quickly that I would expect in less than 5 years a new better version will emerge.

Not many people have second DVD players.... what planet are you on! Do you know anyone with kids, as well as all the PC's etc. Very few people I know have a HD TV.

I re-encode my discs to back up the DVDs I have to avoid them being wrecked by scratching etc. I use a range such as avi (xvid) VCD as well as MP4 for smaller filesize. (I wouldn't encode SD to HD as that would be a waste of my life) and to standard DVD using DVD shrink. As HD formats have harder DRM, I would be surprised if many of these are able to be backuped in the same way as DVD can be.
Catbed
13-05-2007
Originally Posted by skrjones:
“I can't quite believe you can misread everything I said.”

This is life with the written word - what you are thinking when you write and what the people reading what you wrote think you were thinking can be quite different. But I don't think it's quite as bad as you think anyway

Originally Posted by skrjones:
“I believe neither Bluray or HDDVD will take DVD out of the market, technology moves too quickly that I would expect in less than 5 years a new better version will emerge.”

In that case we are stuck with DVD for ever, because we will always be waiting for the next big thing. So I'm sorry, but I disagree. Once formats are sorted (be it a winner or dual format machines) HD players will become 'standard'.

Originally Posted by skrjones:
“Not many people have second DVD players.... what planet are you on! Do you know anyone with kids, as well as all the PC's etc. Very few people I know have a HD TV.”

HD Ready TVs have been selling for a while now, so their numbers in the market significantly outweigh HD players - they have a head start. So once players become reasonably priced people will start to buy them and then get the discs to play. So the kids have a TV/DVD player of their own?. "Oh, damn, honey. We can't get a HD disc player and watch HD films in our living room, because little Johnny won't be able to watch them in his room!" I don't think so
We actually have a similar situation with our cars - one has a Radio/CD and the other, older one, has a Radio/Cassette. It's a bit irritating, but we work around it and eventually the older car will get traded for a new one (which will probably have Radio/MP3 )

Originally Posted by skrjones:
“I re-encode my discs to back up the DVDs I have to avoid them being wrecked by scratching etc.”

Interesting. I've done that for gaming discs because they are in an out of the packing/computer many times in their life, but most video discs don't see anything like that much use, so I've never even thought of trying to do that (never mind the DRM hassles).
nadiasantos
13-05-2007
Originally Posted by Catbed:
“ Once formats are sorted (be it a winner or dual format machines) HD players will become 'standard'.

HD Ready TVs have been selling for a while now, so their numbers in the market significantly outweigh HD players - they have a head start. So once players become reasonably priced people will start to buy them and then get the discs to play.”

But as things look at the moment player prices are years away from mass market prices.

And whether or not they are cheap,most wont got for either while both exist.

A sub £300 DF player or sub £200 single format player could kick start the market but as things stand at the moment nothing is going to change.

Unlike VHS ,the dvd format offers a quality equal or better to the quality of what you watch on a live broadcast so until HD channels are available on a much larger scale the demand for HD discs will remain niche.

A large majority are happy with dvd and can see no reason to change
ney
13-05-2007
Originally Posted by Chparmar:
“HDMI DVD players are good at up scaling DVD content but no way is it great or mind-blowing!

The good thing is that both Blu-ray and HD-DVD are fully DVD backwards compatible.

Once a BD or HD-DVD player gets around $25, I think it's a natural progression to upgrade and discontinue "just" DVD players. You don't have to replace your DVD collection; but with new movies; I rather buy a copy with higher quality than not!

It's not however gonna be a mass-impact like DVD was to the industry and I don't think it will increase $$$ for many companies involved. The few hardcore Home Cinema fans will be the only ones replacing their collection.”

I got a Goodmans HD upscale DVD player that cost me about £50 at the time. http://www.currys.co.uk/martprd/stor...ory_oid=-30719
In my view Blue Ray will turn out to be the format in years to come.

Darren
tvmoog
18-05-2007
Quote:
“HDMI DVD players are good at up scaling DVD content but no way is it great or mind-blowing!”


I have to disagree 100 pecent with this comment. I've got a DVD upscaler player and it's produced some amazing upscaled SD DVD films. I don't believe Blu-ray or HD-DVD can offer much higher quality than most SD upscaled DVDS. Seriously, I've got DVDS upscaled and you can see everything, the skin pores, the hairs on the arms, the texture, everything. It is high definition - the difference between it and standard definition is incredible.

I think it's a myth or conspiracy to say upscaled DVDs don't offer true HD. They may not be Blu-ray or HD-DVD format but a perfect transfer SD DVD upscaled can offer an amazing picture.

Just a few days ago I watched an old black and white movie upscaled - Kind Hearts and Coronets. I've NEVER seen better picture quality for an old b&w film. It was amazing. It looked almost like a new movie (but shot in black and white).

By the way, your tv's sharpness setting can dramatically increase or decrease the amount of detail with upscaled DVDS. If you have the sharpness setting too low (say less than 30%) you lose a lot of detail.

Some upscaled DVDs don't look so good but some look incredible. I doubt people would be able to tell the difference between some upscaled DVDs and Blu-ray/HD-DVD.

It's what the eyes see that informs your opinion. There's only so much detail the human eyes can see to make much difference. If something is exceptionally detailed, does it make any difference if one format is one or two pecent more detailed? Nope. At a certain degree of detail, the human eye can't see any more detail. This is also why some people claim there is little difference between MP3s and true audio. Your ears can't differentiate between certain sounds. Same is true with video images.
tvmoog
18-05-2007
I was unable to edit my last post so I just want to add this...

Here is a review of Lord of the Rings on HD-DVD, upscaled DVD and SD DVD:

Quote:
“Today I performed a little test. I wanted to see how well a DVD upscaled to 1080i looked compared with a non-upscaled DVD, as well as compared with the same thing in true HD.

I took my Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers DVD, and loaded up The Two Towers in HD on demand through Comcast cable.

I played the movie on my Xbox 360 DVD player (480p), on my Philips upscaling DVD (480p upscaled to 1080i), and then the HD Comcast version (1080i).

Not surprisingly, the HD version was the most detailed, and the non-upscaled DVD was the least sharp.

Where my interest lied is where the upscaled DVD fell on this spectrum. Happily, it was closer to the HD picture than the non-upscaled DVD picture.

CNet warned that upscaling “doesn’t do miracles”, but I was pleased with the marked improvement in sharpness in the upscaled DVD picture. This was especially evident in the menu screen before the movie loaded, where one could view black text on a white-ish background, and really compare the sharpness. The upscaled DVD was much sharper than the non-upscaled DVD, and rivaled the HD picture.

During actual scenes, subtle detail appeared in the HD picture that did not appear (or at least was not as pronounced) in even the upscaled DVD image.

Granted, this test was not perfect - only the upscaling DVD player was connected via HDMI, the other two devices were connected via component. But HDMI doesn’t automatically mean a better picture, either.
It may not do “miracles”, but this little unscientific test made me glad that I got an upscaling DVD player. It’s impressive, and makes me wonder how necessary HD-DVD and Blu-Ray really are (certainly an improvement, but not one that’s going to have me replacing my old DVDs anytime soon - maybe NEXT format war)”

http://www.economyofeffort.com/

Note: The upscaled DVD was much sharper than the non-upscaled DVD, and rivaled the HD picture.

So there you go. It's unlikely most of the time your eyes will tell much or any difference between a perfect transfer SD DVD upscaled and a true HD film. If you stop each scene and analyse how much detail it has, then sure, there may be a subtle difference between the very best upscaled DVDs and Blu-ray and HD-DVD, but movies are meant to be watched, not analysed for how many hair follicles you see or how many skin pores you notice.
Dean1474
18-05-2007
But was this on a full HD Display ?
nadiasantos
18-05-2007
Originally Posted by tvmoog:
“I was unable to edit my last post so I just want to add this...

Here is a review of Lord of the Rings on HD-DVD, upscaled DVD and SD DVD:



http://www.economyofeffort.com/

Note: The upscaled DVD was much sharper than the non-upscaled DVD, and rivaled the HD picture.

So there you go. It's unlikely most of the time your eyes will tell much or any difference between a perfect transfer SD DVD upscaled and a true HD film. If you stop each scene and analyse how much detail it has, then sure, there may be a subtle difference between the very best upscaled DVDs and Blu-ray and HD-DVD, but movies are meant to be watched, not analysed for how many hair follicles you see or how many skin pores you notice. ”

You cant get HD out of an SD source.

Thats scientific fact.

Upscaling just adds trickery to the image to make it look like an HD source.

And from your post it sounds as if it works.

But I would post again once you compare an upscaled SD DVD side by side with its genuine HD counterpart then see if you still cant tell
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