Laurie - excellent post. Spot on

I think the interesting things is that to me, Ben and Keith have almost entirely opposite strengths and weaknesses. Ben's weaknesses have been discussed at length whilst Keith's haven't.

At the risk of continuing the Ben Debate, I saw his appearance on BBC Breakfast on Monday and he said he thought the winner should be Lee.

Thank you shoequeen Absolutely agree about Ben, they challenged him so much with that 'crying' song, Keith has never been given anything that challenges his acting abilities. I don't know why the panel decided that some contestants should have to jump through hoops every week (like Daniel, 'we need to see you do angry', then next week 'okay, now lets have some heartbreak') whereas others have just been allowed to do their thing and get on with it.

My take on the judges attitude to Keith in comparison to say, Ben, is the difference in training and experience that they have had.

Ben, like Lewis, attends a Stage School therefore he has gained far more help and advice over the past couple of years.

Keith on the other hand, in comparison to the remainder of the contestants, is an amateur who happens to have a natural gift and talent that still needs guidance and honing. At the stage he is, he is still learning rights and wrongs and is a work in progress. He does receive criticism and advice on a Saturday night and takes it on board.

The others know a great deal more but have made errors of judgement in their performances when they should have known better.

I have never advocated that Keith should win this contest but should he do so, then good on him!

That is a really good point.

Could someone enlighten me to what happened on BBC News 24 yesterday and who was on there and said what, as I think I have lost the plot?

But according to the Joseph website, Keith is doing a HNC in musical theatre in Telford College in Edinburgh and he has also been involved in Stagequest in Edinburgh for years. And I'm not sure about the details, but hasn't he done some professional work too, a ten day UK tour or something? He too has access to professionals to help him hone his talent. I take your point, but I have an idea that Ben hasn't been in stage school for that long and maybe there isn't that much difference in their training.

The HNC at Telford College is just the equivalent of an A Level. StageQuest is a theatre workshop which whilst helpful, is not in the same league as a Stage School. His 'tour' was his prize for winning Chigago Rock Cafe Rock Idol which he never undertook because of being given the opportunity of taking part in 'Any Dream Will Do.'

Hardly much in the way of access to professionals on the scale of the others.

Ben has been at Italia Conti for about 1 1/2 years. Lewis since the age of 13. I would say that doing a musical theatre course is a lot different than being at a theatre arts school as these are so difficult to get into. Ben was about one of 60 to get a place in the year he went ot of 4000 applicants. I don't know how long Keith has been at his college.

Laurie - that is exactly my concern re the panel - I have suddenly a horrible concern that its Keith's turn to be stitched up because they really, really want Lee with Lewis as understudy allowing Lewis to take over and Lee to go back to Phantom as a bankable lead. But maybe I'm too cynical.

Your idea has legs, but surely Lee must keep doing Joseph for a year or so because of the people that have voted for him? Do you think ALW is really scheming for 2009 already?

(Obviously making some foregone conclusions here)

Lee for new lead in Phantom 2?

Sorry but that sounds like you think Ben (and Lewis) should be penalised because they have had more training. Couldn't Keith also have gone to London to train if the course he is doing is not good enough? I agree some allowance in the early stages is good but by now isn't it a bit late. Follow that argument to the end then Lee should not win because he has more experience.

I agree. The argument about who's had the most training could be relevant if we're talking about who has the most potential, but this show is about casting someone now.

No its a limited run - less than a year but can't remember how long - that of course can always be extended.

Hmm, interesting idea there theatregeek, you might well be right. It is my opinion that right from the start, Andrew and Bill (though none of the others) have wanted Lewis in the part, but as you say, runner up would work too, because that way strings could be pulled to get him involved.

They might well try to stitch Keith up on Saturday, but I doubt it will work, because I just don't think Lewis has the fan base to overtake him. No matter what happens, I think Lewis will be the also-ran in this final.

And in reply to Gillypoots, everyone's training is relative, but we need to bear in mind that not one of the top 12 Josephs were genuinely picked off the street, no matter what angle has been emphasised by the BBC.

Not at all. I'm just making the comment that Keith has not taken the same path as Ben, or Lewis for that matter and therefore isn't as enlightened as they are.

How can anyone know the reasons why Keith has stayed put. I do know that you can't just walk into Stage School no matter how talented. It may be financial constraints or it may be that up until now Keith has been happy to remain at home with his family. Alternatively, he may well have been considering his options as to what direction he wanted to go musically.

No matter what the reasoning or thinking, the mere fact that even with his limited experience, his natural talent and ability has brought him a long way in this contest. That says it all for me.

Sorry to pick you up on this but an HNC is not an equivalent of an A level. I run an HNC at a University (in something entirely different) and it counts as the first year of a degree course. YOu need an A level to get on to an HNC.

I agree Keith has a natural talent but he leaves me cold and his attitude is appalling. When he gets praise he stands their nodding "oh how right you are when you say I am brilliant" kind of thing.

Personally I hope he goes out first on Saturday.

[quote=LaurieMarlow;15146588]Hmm, interesting idea there theatregeek, you might well be right. It is my opinion that right from the start, Andrew and Bill (though none of the others) have wanted Lewis in the part, but as you say, runner up would work too, because that way strings could be pulled to get him involved.

They might well try to stitch Keith up on Saturday, but I doubt it will work, because I just don't think Lewis has the fan base to overtake him. No matter what happens, I think Lewis will be the also-ran in this final.

And in reply to Gillypoots, everyone's training is relative, but we need to bear in mind that not one of the top 12 Josephs were genuinely picked off the street, no matter what angle has been emphasised by the BBC.[/QUOTE]

I don't believe that I have made much more of previous experience than any other poster on this forum who wished to comment.

My remarks were simply to make the point that Keith is much more an amateur with talent and a lot less training, that's all.

Interesting about the HNC - I also had the impression it was a much lower level than it clearly is.

I'm not quite sure about your point about Keith's attitude - what's he supposed to do if the judges like him? Disagree?

[quote=Gillypoots;15146918]
Well apologies if I took you up wrongly

My only point is that although there is a clear difference in amount of previous experience, none of the top 12 had been picked off the street, having never had any training or experience at all.

I agree that is where it does rather fall down - but I shall be watching on Saturday for evidence of Josephgate

And on Sunday I'm off to disprove the moon landing.

I don't believe there are really any Josephs at all - it's all done with mirrors

The Apollo landing all over again??

.

Bah 'moon landing' - it was filmed in my spare room you know Or else it was aliens...or something