Yes, but the kicker is that something that is derivative but works always outshines something experimental and ground-breaking that doesn't.

Witness Blur and Radiohead's latest....now you don't have to take my stance that it's self-indulgent noodling that demonstrates that both bands have disappeared up their own arse....but you have to question whether 60 minutes of 'conceptual' rubbish is more artistically valuable than a honest-to-goodness, verse-chorus-verse-chorus-middle 8-chorus-key change to fade pop song. I would sooner listen to a compilation of Las Ketchup, Girls Aloud, Will Young, Busted and Blue than the last two Blur albums.

That all boils down to taste (like a lot of things in this world). Personally I enjoyed the latest Radiohead and Blur albums, and enjoyed the challenge of getting into them.

At the end of the day I expanded my tastes which enabled me to enjoy so many other bands and I now probably enjoy those bands more than I do my old Indie types.

I noticed recently that if I buy an album and think "yeh, this is good!" I wont listen to it again properly (sometimes its so good I can't help but do it - (ie. Hefner's latest offering)) yet I could buy an album that I think "its ok, but not really for me" and I'll end up listening to it far more and 7 times out of 10 preferring it to the 'good' album.

I can see why people get annoyed with Radiohead essentially playing with 1 hand tied behind their back for the sake of it, but I enjoy what it creates and where it takes my tastes. Besides, I've heard The Bends and OK Computer (the latter probably the first example of me listening to an album I didnt like (to the extent its the only one I've ever sold - obviously I re-purchased it) and ended up loving) before and I'd sooner Radiohead bring me something different rather than something that I've heard.

Everybody has a different idea of what is talent and what isn't.

It's my opinion that in every genre there is rubbish and there is great stuff.

The likes of DJ sammy, I wouldnt say is amazing talent, but I couldnt do it, and his singers, well, they sound ok, and I'm sure they would sound better given the right songs, again though, I couldn't do it.

Music is just sound that has rhythm, nobody said you had to have lyrics, and you certainly dont need lyrics to dance, which I guess is why most music without lyrics is classed as "Dance".

Tomcrafts Loneliness is an absolutely cracking track, and it is a huge talent to come from NOWHERE and take your tune (which as far as I know is 100% original) to every dancefloor in the country and also to the top of the singles chart.

It may not have meaningful lyrics, but it sounds good and thats all that matters.

What I am hating right now is that about 99% of r'n'b music is sampling other peoples records, which shows no innovative ability and no originality. I hate how you cant understand a word they are rapping (particularly London based groups). I hate how all the Americans have each other in each others songs, as if to show they cant do it on their own.

I havent sen much "talent" in that genre, although it is definately there.

But DJ Sammy just releases Euro-trance covers of 80s songs! How can you label him as 'not bad' but then deride the '99%' of r&b who use samples?

I've found it the typical viewpoint of those raised on guitar bands to dismiss sampling as 'unoriginal' and therefore talentless. Notwithstanding the fact that sampling and cutting existing records is the very foundation on which hip hop is built, to identify a sample and use it to create a whole new record surely shows MORE talent than creating a cover version?

Besides (and i know a lot of you won't be with me on this one), the end justifies the means. Taking a sample of a classic song and making a song around that sample gives a much better end product than coming up with something original but mediocre. Being able to write your own melodies does not define how good your song is - the end product is what should be judged.

Yes, it's a shortcut to a great song to take a melody that is already great and build around that - but if the end result is another great track, then it's entirely laudable.

As far as not understand a word being rapped...well that's a product of not being a part of the scene. I have been listening to hip hop my entire life and i still find myself relying on rapdict.org to find the meanings of some lyrics. Besides, you've already said that music is just a beat and a melody - so why then criticise rap for being hard to understand lyrically?!?!

And as for your point about rappers featuring in each other's songs...well that's just below contempt. Again, there is a long tradition in hip hop of MCs guesting on tracks and combining to give a different flow to different parts of a track. To say it shows that they 'can't do it on their own' is just ignorant.

Putting aside any personal opinions that music that 'challenges' you to like it isn't doing its job, I concur to an extent. I loved 'The Bends' instantly and it is still my favourite album of all time. When i bought 'OK Computer' i hated it at first. I thought it was self-indulgent shite without any of the genius evident in their second album. Now i adore it, and respect it both as a work of art and as music i can listen to. But i didn't 'work' at enjoying it - to do that because it's been unanimously acclaimed is the mark of a real wannabe IMO.

OK Computer grew on me through a natural process of osmosis - eventually i heard it so much through my friends and in bars that it became familiar, and from then i could start to enjoy it. It still isn't a patch on The Bends, and it *is* one big 70 minute Thom Yorke masturbation session, but the songs remind me of good times and so i can love it.

But it's a fine line...and they crossed it with Kid A, as Blur did with 13 - those two albums got their fair chance to hook me, and they blew it. Obviously one can only rate music on personal preference, but those two albums come below Will Young and Atomic Kitten on my playlist - because not only did they utterly fail to inspire me, but i could not actually listen to them without wanting to turn them off - even Atomic Kitten i could stomach and be quite happy having playing. When i asked myself why - it's because they may well be very interesting and experimental and cutting-edge - but the end product just flat out licks balls.

Its not so much working on enjoying it, its more a case of just putting it on when I'm not in the mood for anything specific.

For instance, I'm sat here reading these forums and I realised my playlist had finished and that I hadn't really listened to it. So I've put on some Prodigy. I wont pay to much attention to it but it wouldn't surprise me if after a couple listens I'll decide to put on a couple specific tracks. I will then really get into them and slowly expand. I'm not on a mission to get into Prodigy for the sake of it, but as I have little better to do at the moment I'll put it on.

Regarding OK Computer I didn't get into that because it was 'acclaimed' - I didn't know it was at the time as I didnt read reviews etc. I got into it through hearing Paranoid Android on a compilation I had. Once I heard and enjoyed that I just had to repurchase the album and give it a proper chance - and it payed off. Since then I have never dismissed music and I know for a fact that if the album is good and given enough time I will appreciate it. Why turn down enjoying something simply to avoid looking like a wannabe.

Finally 'Kid A' really changed my outlook on music. Prior to that I considered Gomez and Mansun as about as 'out there' as you can get. Kid A blew my mind, and because of it I can enjoy listening to the wierd crazy sounds that John Peel plays on a week night. Of course, its all a matter of taste.

Yes, of course....i must go on record and say that Peel's show, while seminal and groundbreaking and other superlatives...does nothing for me. Give me a four on the floor beat, a catchy melody, a key change and some orchestrals and i'm anybody's

And I can totally respect that - its all down to taste. I truly love my music so much so that I have managed to get a job that enables me to listen to it (I work from home as a webmaster) - I sort of make it my business to find new sounds etc. But if you are happy with your four on the floor thats great. Based on the posts in this thread as well as others its obvious you really enjoy your music as well as discussing it. Its also clear that you know your stuff, which is why I'm really enjoying this thread at the moment. Its not often I subscribe to a thread.