thats what i'm asking
Review of new Humax 9200TB
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Series Link is due in a new software release next month. It is not included on the new model but will be an OTA update.
Hi
Yes essentially, it will work perfectly when everything runs to schedule but as soon as something causes a last minute schedule change which will then require some manual intervention to sort out the data, it will probably fail, as did PDC!
There is another part to the accurate recording, and this is tracking schedule changes that happen prior to the start time. What should happen is if the program is shifted to a different time slot and the EPG is updated with this change, the recorder should note that and re-program the start and stop times accordingly, or move it to a different day completely, this will happen as soon as the EPG is updated, perhaps days ahead of the schedule. The recorder will need to come on every now and then to check the schedule.
The PDC type part of it only comes into play 10 minutes before the start time of the program, hence the Humax will switch on 15 minutes before the due time to wait for the signal to record.
What isn't made clear so far is if tracking the schedule and accurate recording are both all or nothing? For example if you choose to loose accurate recording and use padding instead, will the recorder still track EPG changes or is this disabled at the same time?
To me the most reliable method perhaps is to track EPG changes with padding but drop the accurate recording, that way any major schedule changes will see the timer slot updated, but you are not at the mercy of someone having to manually arrange the accurate recording signals last minute for a few minutes change of schedule, then missing the start of the program because the person responsible was out by the front doors having a cig!
Regards
Phil
Quote:
“Isn't the Accurate Record Feature just basically a version of PDC which was never really implemented by most channels which resulted in most recordings never starting and stopping at the new times?
It was basically a great idea that never worked - padding seems to be the safer route, especially as channels like ITV can be very unreliable with their timings.”
“Isn't the Accurate Record Feature just basically a version of PDC which was never really implemented by most channels which resulted in most recordings never starting and stopping at the new times?
It was basically a great idea that never worked - padding seems to be the safer route, especially as channels like ITV can be very unreliable with their timings.”
Yes essentially, it will work perfectly when everything runs to schedule but as soon as something causes a last minute schedule change which will then require some manual intervention to sort out the data, it will probably fail, as did PDC!
There is another part to the accurate recording, and this is tracking schedule changes that happen prior to the start time. What should happen is if the program is shifted to a different time slot and the EPG is updated with this change, the recorder should note that and re-program the start and stop times accordingly, or move it to a different day completely, this will happen as soon as the EPG is updated, perhaps days ahead of the schedule. The recorder will need to come on every now and then to check the schedule.
The PDC type part of it only comes into play 10 minutes before the start time of the program, hence the Humax will switch on 15 minutes before the due time to wait for the signal to record.
What isn't made clear so far is if tracking the schedule and accurate recording are both all or nothing? For example if you choose to loose accurate recording and use padding instead, will the recorder still track EPG changes or is this disabled at the same time?
To me the most reliable method perhaps is to track EPG changes with padding but drop the accurate recording, that way any major schedule changes will see the timer slot updated, but you are not at the mercy of someone having to manually arrange the accurate recording signals last minute for a few minutes change of schedule, then missing the start of the program because the person responsible was out by the front doors having a cig!
Regards
Phil
Originally Posted by wgmorg:
“That's more an issue with the PC than the 9200T.
Max transfer rate for 9200T is 12 Mbps, i.e. USB Full speed, which many have just about achieved with e-linker.”
“That's more an issue with the PC than the 9200T.
Max transfer rate for 9200T is 12 Mbps, i.e. USB Full speed, which many have just about achieved with e-linker.”
But there is a post elsewhere on either this forum - or the hummy forum that says that someone has found an "un-necessary" CRC check - which when removed speeds up USB transfers by as much as 20%
in fact here is the post: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...hp?t=595366#14
Quote:
“A chap in Germany has located one of the 'arse-ups' in the firmware (an unnecessary CRC check), removing it pushes transfer rate up by 30%.”
“A chap in Germany has located one of the 'arse-ups' in the firmware (an unnecessary CRC check), removing it pushes transfer rate up by 30%.”
Andy
Originally Posted by andrewd1:
“So does it have series links???”
“So does it have series links???”
Series Link is part of Phase 2 FP.
Last I heard was that this will be rolled out July sometime.
Last edited by simola : 20-06-2007 at 13:24
Originally Posted by PhilipL:
“There is another part to the accurate recording, and this is tracking schedule changes that happen prior to the start time. What should happen is if the program is shifted to a different time slot and the EPG is updated with this change, the recorder should note that and re-program the start and stop times accordingly, or move it to a different day completely, this will happen as soon as the EPG is updated, perhaps days ahead of the schedule. The recorder will need to come on every now and then to check the schedule.”
“There is another part to the accurate recording, and this is tracking schedule changes that happen prior to the start time. What should happen is if the program is shifted to a different time slot and the EPG is updated with this change, the recorder should note that and re-program the start and stop times accordingly, or move it to a different day completely, this will happen as soon as the EPG is updated, perhaps days ahead of the schedule. The recorder will need to come on every now and then to check the schedule.”
As you say, the tracking schedule sounds like a good feature to use in conjunction with padding and is less prone to human error as with PDC.
Originally Posted by asjonesuk:
“But there is a post elsewhere on either this forum - or the hummy forum that says that someone has found an "un-necessary" CRC check - which when removed speeds up USB transfers by as much as 20%
in fact here is the post: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...hp?t=595366#14
Andy”
“But there is a post elsewhere on either this forum - or the hummy forum that says that someone has found an "un-necessary" CRC check - which when removed speeds up USB transfers by as much as 20%
in fact here is the post: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...hp?t=595366#14
Andy”
Cheers! That's interesting stuff. I wonder if simoncapewell can give us a hint of 'this German chap' and where he read this...
I assume that we are talking about the shared EMMA2 chipset here (which are both in the Hummy and Toppy...) and the CRC mess-up is just in the Hummy?
I am sure others here will be interested...
Originally Posted by asjonesuk:
“Can you try recording something from BBC1 for about 30 minutes, and then transfer it to your computer via the USB - and tell us roughly how long it took to do the transfer?
Andy”
“Can you try recording something from BBC1 for about 30 minutes, and then transfer it to your computer via the USB - and tell us roughly how long it took to do the transfer?
Andy”
Right asjonesuk, sorry that I have been so long but a) never done it before and b) had to cart all my computer stuff into the lounge!!!
Right here are the results okay
File BBC News 30mins long size 1,279,024KB
Time taken to upload from PVR, began at 13.33 pm
finished at 13.56 pm, total time 23 minutes.
So don't know if this has been changed as I have never used it.
GG
Originally Posted by jxp:
“Thanks for checking this. I suppose a message is better than dropping a recording.
So you set two timers for 8:00pm - 8:30pm and then tried to add one for 7:30pm - 8:00pm?
Does it work if you set the 7:30pm timer first? Currently (using v10) if you set the earlier timer first you get all three recordings made. If you set the 7:30pm timer later, one of the 8:00pm recordings is dropped.
Have you found any long programme names to check the other issue with Auto Padding?”
“Thanks for checking this. I suppose a message is better than dropping a recording.
So you set two timers for 8:00pm - 8:30pm and then tried to add one for 7:30pm - 8:00pm?
Does it work if you set the 7:30pm timer first? Currently (using v10) if you set the earlier timer first you get all three recordings made. If you set the 7:30pm timer later, one of the 8:00pm recordings is dropped.
Have you found any long programme names to check the other issue with Auto Padding?”
No jxp, it will no longer allow you to do this, and I am more or less sure that this is part of the Freeview specs, that the user has to be informed if there are going to be any conflicts regarding setting of recordings, either with padding or with the accurate recording method. So this will no longer ever be a problem because the recorder is now set to stop you from setting a recording that would conflict with two recordings already set. This will also spill over to when series link is implemented as well, if there is a program that is part of a series say, and you forget or something, and then try to set another recording at some later date, you should be warned. (See the info that I have put about the Auto tracking (accurate recording) above.
GG
Originally Posted by asjonesuk:
“Someone has found an "un-necessary" CRC check - which when removed speeds up USB transfers by as much as 20%”
“Someone has found an "un-necessary" CRC check - which when removed speeds up USB transfers by as much as 20%”
My reading was that it related specifically to a Topfield. The Hummy may or may not be the same.
Originally Posted by Grannygrunt:
“File BBC News 30mins long size 1,279,024KB
Time taken to upload from PVR, began at 13.33 pm
finished at 13.56 pm, total time 23 minutes.
So don't know if this has been changed as I have never used it.
GG”
“File BBC News 30mins long size 1,279,024KB
Time taken to upload from PVR, began at 13.33 pm
finished at 13.56 pm, total time 23 minutes.
So don't know if this has been changed as I have never used it.
GG
”
That's 7.4Mbit/s which is about right for the average Hummy setup (remember theoretical max rate is 12Mbit/s).
Now put that .ts file through ProjectX and see how many errors you get
Originally Posted by stonehenge8:
“What about Series Link?”
“What about Series Link?”
To stonehenge8 and the other poster who asked, series link is to be implemented via an OTA update at the end of July. It is part of the Group 2 specifications of Freeview Playback (please find these specs elsewhere) and I am not lying, when you get them you will all wonder how you managed without!! TV Anytime box that I also own has series link now and it is a boon.
Humax will be updating as and when, but all the Freeview specs have been divided into 3 stages, this black 9200TB has the stage 1 specs on board, which includes the accurate recording spec. I shall use this, as I have never used padding (honestly!) so will be really testing this feature to the limit, but you still have the ability to set padding if that is what you would rather do.
GG
Originally Posted by Martin Liddle:
“My reading was that it related specifically to a Topfield. The Hummy may or may not be the same.”
“My reading was that it related specifically to a Topfield. The Hummy may or may not be the same.”
Reading what? Of that thread or the German chappy's post?
Some of us already know that the Toppy can be forced into a dedicated mode of file transfer so that it can reach somewhere near the 12Mbit/s throughput of Full Speed...
If this CRC mess-up is taken out of the Toppy then Humax might be able to take it out of the Hummy too...
Originally Posted by son_t:
“That's 7.4Mbit/s which is about right for the average Hummy setup (remember theoretical max rate is 12Mbit/s).
Now put that .ts file through ProjectX and see how many errors you get”
“That's 7.4Mbit/s which is about right for the average Hummy setup (remember theoretical max rate is 12Mbit/s).
Now put that .ts file through ProjectX and see how many errors you get
”
What's Project X?? Have only done this upload to test it for you lot!!! Alright you uploading guys, answer me this then (which as I was waiting for the upload I got wondering) how long would it take the same file (note the size) to download over the internet at say 4-6mbsecond??? Would it be any faster???
GG
Originally Posted by Grannygrunt:
“To stonehenge8 and the other poster who asked, series link is to be implemented via an OTA update at the end of July. It is part of the Group 2 specifications of Freeview Playback (please find these specs elsewhere) and I am not lying, when you get them you will all wonder how you managed without!! TV Anytime box that I also own has series link now and it is a boon.
Humax will be updating as and when, but all the Freeview specs have been divided into 3 stages, this black 9200TB has the stage 1 specs on board, which includes the accurate recording spec. I shall use this, as I have never used padding (honestly!) so will be really testing this feature to the limit, but you still have the ability to set padding if that is what you would rather do.
GG”
“To stonehenge8 and the other poster who asked, series link is to be implemented via an OTA update at the end of July. It is part of the Group 2 specifications of Freeview Playback (please find these specs elsewhere) and I am not lying, when you get them you will all wonder how you managed without!! TV Anytime box that I also own has series link now and it is a boon.
Humax will be updating as and when, but all the Freeview specs have been divided into 3 stages, this black 9200TB has the stage 1 specs on board, which includes the accurate recording spec. I shall use this, as I have never used padding (honestly!) so will be really testing this feature to the limit, but you still have the ability to set padding if that is what you would rather do.
GG
”
Back on track... not to get bogged down in the Accurate Recording or Autopadding aspect...
Can you answer post #3? Schedule a programme with a long name using the EPG. When it records does it maintain the long name or is it truncated?
Originally Posted by Grannygrunt:
“What's Project X?? Have only done this upload to test it for you lot!!! Alright you uploading guys, answer me this then (which as I was waiting for the upload I got wondering) how long would it take the same file (note the size) to download over the internet at say 4-6mbsecond??? Would it be any faster???
GG”
“What's Project X?? Have only done this upload to test it for you lot!!! Alright you uploading guys, answer me this then (which as I was waiting for the upload I got wondering) how long would it take the same file (note the size) to download over the internet at say 4-6mbsecond??? Would it be any faster???
GG
”
ProjectX: http://h2d.wikispaces.com/ProjectX (How to demux here.)
If the 1.2Gb file is transfered via a 100Mbit/s link (say you get 49Mbit/s max
) then it would take... 49/7=7, 23/7=> 3 minutes give or take. (Which is what you would get (give or take) if you used the cable mod or directly attach you Hummy HDD to your PC and used 9200TReadFiles ). With a dedicated cross over cable you could get throughput near 100Mbit/s (give or take
) Just to confuse even more. If the USB link was Hi Speed, then you could get a theoretical 480Mbit/s throughput! So imagine how everyone got upset when the Hummy was first released promising USB2.0 transfers and no one could transfer at this (Hi)speed! Imagine that 1.2Gb file transfered to your PC in 20 seconds 
! (give or take 
)
Originally Posted by son_t:
“Back on track... not to get bogged down in the Accurate Recording or Autopadding aspect...
Can you answer post #3? Schedule a programme with a long name using the EPG. When it records does it maintain the long name or is it truncated?
ProjectX: http://h2d.wikispaces.com/ProjectX
If the 1.2Gb file is transfered via a 100Mbit/s link (say you get 49Mbit/s max ) then it would take... 49/7=7, 23/7=> 3 minutes give or take. (Which is what you would get is you used the cable mod or directly attach you Hummy HDD to your PC and used 9200TReadFiles ).”
“Back on track... not to get bogged down in the Accurate Recording or Autopadding aspect...
Can you answer post #3? Schedule a programme with a long name using the EPG. When it records does it maintain the long name or is it truncated?
ProjectX: http://h2d.wikispaces.com/ProjectX
If the 1.2Gb file is transfered via a 100Mbit/s link (say you get 49Mbit/s max
) then it would take... 49/7=7, 23/7=> 3 minutes give or take. (Which is what you would get is you used the cable mod or directly attach you Hummy HDD to your PC and used 9200TReadFiles ).”
God your making my head spin!!! I'm only an old granny you know!!! Any way will test your truncted name for you will find one with a long name and report back asap. (says she ignoring the ironing and housework to faff about with her new PVR)
GG
Grannygrunt
How’s the fan?
Does it switch off when in standby?
When it’s on, is it loud like the Christmas 2006 reports, or is it petty quiet like all humaxs before Christmas 2006?
I have one of the old Humax 9200T, which has the fan on all the time even when in standby, but is very quiet (many people do not realise it’s on until you switch it off and look at the fan blades from the back of the machine).
How’s the fan?
Does it switch off when in standby?
When it’s on, is it loud like the Christmas 2006 reports, or is it petty quiet like all humaxs before Christmas 2006?
I have one of the old Humax 9200T, which has the fan on all the time even when in standby, but is very quiet (many people do not realise it’s on until you switch it off and look at the fan blades from the back of the machine).
Originally Posted by Grannygrunt:
“God your making my head spin!!! I'm only an old granny you know!!! Any way will test your truncted name for you will find one with a long name and report back asap. (says she ignoring the ironing and housework to faff about with her new PVR)
GG”
“God your making my head spin!!! I'm only an old granny you know!!! Any way will test your truncted name for you will find one with a long name and report back asap. (says she ignoring the ironing and housework to faff about with her new PVR)
GG
”
Thanks for your efforts BTW. Much appreciated by all I would say...
Originally Posted by Grannygrunt:
“However, I was disappointed to find that the EPG still is not saved to either memory or hard drive, although it has been vastly speeded up compared to my old 9200t, it took just 5 minutes to fully populate the whole eight days programmes, and that was with me staying on Sky three!!! My previous 9200t would take about 20 to 25 minutes to fully populate for the following eight days, so at least this is a vast improvement.”
“However, I was disappointed to find that the EPG still is not saved to either memory or hard drive, although it has been vastly speeded up compared to my old 9200t, it took just 5 minutes to fully populate the whole eight days programmes, and that was with me staying on Sky three!!! My previous 9200t would take about 20 to 25 minutes to fully populate for the following eight days, so at least this is a vast improvement.”
If you have it set to turn onto BBC1 at first, you should see a vast improvement. When my machine comes out of standby, it has been set to start on BBC1, and the 8-day guide is loaded in less than 10 minutes.
On the subject of accurate recording/auto padding, I see it like this: accurate recording should account for schedule changes, like say Coronation Street starting 15 minutes later, but you'd still not want to miss the start at 7.45 so padding surely would take care of that if you set it to start 1 minute beforehand? Or have I misunderstood completely?
Originally Posted by TonyW:
“On the subject of accurate recording/auto padding, I see it like this: accurate recording should account for schedule changes, like say Coronation Street starting 15 minutes later, but you'd still not want to miss the start at 7.45 so padding surely would take care of that if you set it to start 1 minute beforehand? Or have I misunderstood completely?”
“On the subject of accurate recording/auto padding, I see it like this: accurate recording should account for schedule changes, like say Coronation Street starting 15 minutes later, but you'd still not want to miss the start at 7.45 so padding surely would take care of that if you set it to start 1 minute beforehand? Or have I misunderstood completely?”
But you can only use one or the other - not both. Accurate recording relies on info broadcast so the stream should contain markers to when the start of the program is about to happen and the Hummy will look out for this and start recording and hence will not miss the start (or end - as it has the end marker too).
This is as I understand it. Obviously the '10/15 mins' window means that if a program is really late or early then the 'accuracy' is lost. But then autopadding will not cope with this situation either if the padding time is less than the early/late period...
Originally Posted by spoon261:
“Grannygrunt
How’s the fan?
Does it switch off when in standby?
When it’s on, is it loud like the Christmas 2006 reports, or is it petty quiet like all humaxs before Christmas 2006?
I have one of the old Humax 9200T, which has the fan on all the time even when in standby, but is very quiet (many people do not realise it’s on until you switch it off and look at the fan blades from the back of the machine).”
“Grannygrunt
How’s the fan?
Does it switch off when in standby?
When it’s on, is it loud like the Christmas 2006 reports, or is it petty quiet like all humaxs before Christmas 2006?
I have one of the old Humax 9200T, which has the fan on all the time even when in standby, but is very quiet (many people do not realise it’s on until you switch it off and look at the fan blades from the back of the machine).”
Spoon261, there isn't a sound coming from it, not even the clicking my old one used to do when you first switched it on, nothing, its as quiet as a mouse!
GG
Hi
That's exactly right, there are two aspects to accurate recording.
One is tracking the changes in the EPG to get the current correct scheduled time, even if it changed since first programming it, the other is making sure you don't miss the first or last few minutes of the program due to small over or under run somewhere, this is what we use padding for currently.
So it may go something like:
Saturday: Set from guide to record Coronation Street for 7:30-8:00 on Sunday.
Sunday morning: Schedule changed by ITV, Coronation Street now on at 8:00-8:30, EPG is updated to show this, anyone programming Coronation Street now will of course have the correct later time, everyone else has a timer set for the original and now wrong time.
*Sunday: Humax is switched on (or comes on to update automatically I assume), notices Coronation Street is on at a different time and updates the timer schedule to 8:00-8:30, switches back to Stand By, well that's how I would have done it.
Sunday, 7:45: Hummy comes on to listen for accurate recording signal. I assume it will also take the opportunity to load up the EPG and check the current scheduled time, if this is different by more than 10 minutes I would think it would update the schedule again and then back to Stand By.
**Sunday, 7:58: Coronation Street now starts, Hummy is already on waiting and now sees the Now banner change to "Coronation Street" and starts recording. When the Now banner no longer says "Coronation Street", it stops recording.
*There is a problem here isn't there. How often does the Humax come on to check the EPG? The Freeview specs don't say how this part works, only that when the PVR isn't in standby it will continually check the EPG and update any timer schedules. So are the updates only done if you have it on watching something else or does it periodically switch on to check the EPG? There is no problem if a program starts later, but if it starts much earlier we are still going to miss it, as the Hummy only comes on 15 minutes before the start of the timer setting, that we know off.
**This is the area where accurate recording is most likely to go wrong, as the Now and Next data is real time information that means when the schedule changes last minute someone needs to manually alter this data, no matter of the time day or night. Providing the recorder is tracking the major schedule changes then using padding here instead of the accurate recording Now and Next data would be more reliable. The question is does the Hummy allow this?
Regards
Phil
Quote:
“On the subject of accurate recording/auto padding, I see it like this: accurate recording should account for schedule changes, like say Coronation Street starting 15 minutes later, but you'd still not want to miss the start at 7.45 so padding surely would take care of that if you set it to start 1 minute beforehand? Or have I misunderstood completely?”
“On the subject of accurate recording/auto padding, I see it like this: accurate recording should account for schedule changes, like say Coronation Street starting 15 minutes later, but you'd still not want to miss the start at 7.45 so padding surely would take care of that if you set it to start 1 minute beforehand? Or have I misunderstood completely?”
That's exactly right, there are two aspects to accurate recording.
One is tracking the changes in the EPG to get the current correct scheduled time, even if it changed since first programming it, the other is making sure you don't miss the first or last few minutes of the program due to small over or under run somewhere, this is what we use padding for currently.
So it may go something like:
Saturday: Set from guide to record Coronation Street for 7:30-8:00 on Sunday.
Sunday morning: Schedule changed by ITV, Coronation Street now on at 8:00-8:30, EPG is updated to show this, anyone programming Coronation Street now will of course have the correct later time, everyone else has a timer set for the original and now wrong time.
*Sunday: Humax is switched on (or comes on to update automatically I assume), notices Coronation Street is on at a different time and updates the timer schedule to 8:00-8:30, switches back to Stand By, well that's how I would have done it.
Sunday, 7:45: Hummy comes on to listen for accurate recording signal. I assume it will also take the opportunity to load up the EPG and check the current scheduled time, if this is different by more than 10 minutes I would think it would update the schedule again and then back to Stand By.
**Sunday, 7:58: Coronation Street now starts, Hummy is already on waiting and now sees the Now banner change to "Coronation Street" and starts recording. When the Now banner no longer says "Coronation Street", it stops recording.
*There is a problem here isn't there. How often does the Humax come on to check the EPG? The Freeview specs don't say how this part works, only that when the PVR isn't in standby it will continually check the EPG and update any timer schedules. So are the updates only done if you have it on watching something else or does it periodically switch on to check the EPG? There is no problem if a program starts later, but if it starts much earlier we are still going to miss it, as the Hummy only comes on 15 minutes before the start of the timer setting, that we know off.
**This is the area where accurate recording is most likely to go wrong, as the Now and Next data is real time information that means when the schedule changes last minute someone needs to manually alter this data, no matter of the time day or night. Providing the recorder is tracking the major schedule changes then using padding here instead of the accurate recording Now and Next data would be more reliable. The question is does the Hummy allow this?
Regards
Phil
I can't believe they've released this when they can't be bothered releasing the latest firmware OTA for the existing customers
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