[vinegar vera]

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcas...structure.html

Interesting article

[mrbernay]

Originally Posted by vinegar vera

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcas...structure.html

Interesting article

"It is not clear that this level of complexity and specificity is delivering maximum value for ITV viewers. It is actually some of our larger regions that have been performing most strongly in ratings and quality terms over recent years."

Michael Grade speaking like an accountant...
Obviously the larger regions have always fared better. In urban areas, the bias has always been towards ITV (I don't want to get into the old class war thing, but, from the beginning, that was, generally, how it was). ITV was the more "working class" channel.
In more rural areas (TWW West, Border (as stated by MG), the older population gravitated more easily to the BBC. However, IMO, those areas with a particularly higher percentage of older viewers did become attached to their ITV company - Westward and Anglia spring to mind - and they were owned by "establishment" figures: Sir Peter Cadbury and the Marquess of Raynham respectively. Even their logos were "posh": the Golden Hind and the Anglia knight. Cadbury, although not originally from the West Country fought his corner as if he were; Raynham was from an old Norfolk family.
I think Grade is clutching at straws in a way. ITV have got to start making decent programmes that people all over the country want to watch. He can't just appeal to one demographic. He is bound to fail if he does.
I'm not saying ITV should go back to its old regional structure. I imagine Grade is thinking of perhaps of six regions in England (post-analogue): London, the South + Thames Valley, the West, the Midlands and East Anglia, Yorkshire/Tyne Tees and the North West (Granada + Border England).
Sorry this has been a bit long...

[technokid]

Another step in the erosion of regional ITV, it looks like goodbye to ITV Westcountry & ITV (HTV) West and hello to ITV South-West. A rumour is that the local news for the entire South-West will come from Bristol,What a shame ! but we all knew it was coming !!! South-West Tonight with all the lightweight regional opt outs. UGH !!! Anglia and Border too, who will be next ?

[Martin Phillp]

I can see why itv would like to merge some of the regions with the non-news regional programming.

I could tolerate London merging with Meridian and Anglia if the local news commitment is kept along the old franchise lines.

[sussex]

Originally Posted by Martin Phillp

I can see why itv would like to merge some of the regions with the non-news regional programming.

I could tolerate London merging with Meridian and Anglia if the local news commitment is kept along the old franchise lines.

ITV in England has been given the go ahead to offer just 30 minutes per week of regional non-news programming from next year,hardly a big commitment.I'm sure Mr.Grade is hoping to cut down on regional news as well.Recent 'local' programmes in the non-news slot in London have included items on Warwickshire so nothing would surprise me.

[mrbernay]

Originally Posted by Martin Phillp

I can see why itv would like to merge some of the regions with the non-news regional programming.

I could tolerate London merging with Meridian and Anglia if the local news commitment is kept along the old franchise lines.

Can't see London merging with any region TBH - it would not get the go-ahead from Ofcom because of the advertising revenue. Think my previous solution is more plausible. However, although Anglia and London had the same The Way We Were until last Sunday, from next week, they are doing a "TWWW on Holiday" with Yorkshire. As a region, though, it would surely be YTV, Tyne Tees (this region has existed since the days of Trident - although Anglia never joined in to form the tri- of Trident!!) and Central-Anglia: it's all to do with the population for advertising purposes. That's why I think that Thames Valley is just another way of sliding that region into the South...

[Ambassador]

The BBC needs a restructure regionally

BBC North East and Cumbria is insane! it covers far too great an area

[PDMB]

new Structure.... 'educated' guess

ITV London -as now.

ITV South & East (what is currently Meridian, Thames Valley, & Anglia)

ITV SW (what is currently Westcountry and West)

ITV Wales- as now.

ITV Central- as now (unless East and West Mids news mags are merged back into one Midlands wide prog)

ITV NW (what is currently Granada and Border)

ITV NE (what is currently Yorkshire and Tyne Tees).

[Ambassador]

Originally Posted by PDMB

ITV NE (what is currently Yorkshire and Tyne Tees).

Thats a massive area considering Tyne Tees have already split its 6pm bulletins into 2 seperate Tyne and Tees bulletins

[sussex]

Originally Posted by PDMB

new Structure.... 'educated' guess

ITV London -as now.

ITV South & East (what is currently Meridian/ Thames Valley & Anglia)

ITV SW (what is currently Westcountry and West)

ITV Wales- as now.

ITV Central- as now (unless East and West Mids news mags are merged back into one Midlands wide prog)

ITV NW (what is currently Granada and Border)

ITV NE (what is currently Yorkshire and Tyne Tees).

Very interesting,however as Meridian have recently been sharing programmes with the West and South West rather than Anglia,i think they might link- up with Anglia joining London(They have been sharing programmes at times recently too)>.Anglia and London are the same regional edition of some listings magazines as are the South and South West.I wouldn't disagree with any of the others.

I reckon maybe Meridian (Kent/E. Sussex) along with Anglia

and Meridian (W.Sussex) along with WestCountry, Mer. Nth. and HTV West...

[PDMB]

Originally Posted by sussex

Very interesting,however as Meridian have recently been sharing programmes with the West and South West rather than Anglia,i think they might link- up with Anglia joining London(They have been sharing programmes at times recently too)>.Anglia and London are the same regional edition of some listings magazines as are the South and South West.

If Meridian goes with the West & Westcountry to creat a super ITV South, than I think Anglia would go with Central.

I plumped for an Anglia- Meridian type up, because the East and SE Gov regions, are essentially never ending suburbia- commuterland for London, and therefore they are general issues that unite people in Ipswich and Southampton for example, which wouldn't unite people in Exeter and Brighton for example.

I can't see any region joining with London, unless we get ITV England, because if there is one thing people outside of London hate............

[PDMB]

Originally Posted by Ambassador

Thats a massive area considering Tyne Tees have already split its 6pm bulletins into 2 seperate Tyne and Tees bulletins

but in terms of ITV History - a very natural one too. Although admittedly Berwick-upon-Tweed to Kings Lynn is big.

[sussex]

Originally Posted by PDMB

If Meridian goes with the West & Westcountry to creat a super ITV South, than I think Anglia would go with Central.

I plumped for an Anglia- Meridian type up, because the East and SE Gov regions, are essentially never ending suburbia- commuterland for London, and therefore they are general issues that unite people in Ipswich and Southampton for example, which wouldn't unite people in Exeter and Brighton for example.

I can't see any region joining with London, unless we get ITV England, because if there is one think people outisde of London hate............

We virtually have ITV England anyway,and no doubt if Ofcom can be persuaded to drop all regional commitments over the next few years this exercise will be just a temporary way of reducing costs.

[mrbernay]

Originally Posted by PDMB

If Meridian goes with the West & Westcountry to creat a super ITV South, than I think Anglia would go with Central.

I plumped for an Anglia- Meridian type up, because the East and SE Gov regions, are essentially never ending suburbia- commuterland for London, and therefore they are general issues that unite people in Ipswich and Southampton for example, which wouldn't unite people in Exeter and Brighton for example.

I can't see any region joining with London, unless we get ITV England, because if there is one think people outisde of London hate............

You still haven't convinced me that my regional divisions aren't the right ones. To answer a few possibilities. YTV+ Tyne Tees, as far as population goes, would be no bigger than Granada + Border England. Central and Anglia already have substantial overlaps in the Northants, Leics, etc area, and a population which would be similar to the two preceeding regions (this is, of course, minus Oxford, which would become part of a larger South region, which, in itself, as population goes, would rival the others (and with London would be an equal as far as advertising spending power goes). The local progs are still West + South West; Anglia is now twinning with Yorkshire for their regional opt-out on Tuesdays, so a switch to twinning with Central wouldn't be a problem. The TV mags will change as needs be. TV Times is already a national mag (= England; Wales; Scotland; NI editions); the Border Radio Times is part of the Scottish edition....

[Ambassador]

Originally Posted by PDMB

but in terms of ITV History - a very natural one too. Although admittedly Berwick-upon-Tweed to Kings Lynn is big.

Tyne Tees is absurd at times, like BBC NE Cumbria

You get Newcastle, York and Sellafield all in one bulletin...its absurd!

[sussex]

I like the bit where Grade goes on about the current regions not giving maximum value to viewers.Well i'm sure he means ITV shareholders really.Its been a few years now since any of the English regions have given much value to viewers.With London getting items about Warwickshire and Cornwall about Kent the whole thing is absurd.But don't get fooled that he's worried about providing a better regional service,just a lower cost one and if possible none at all.As to the larger regions now getting better audiences well he would say that,wouldn't he if he wanted to close the smaller ones down.In any case, the franchises which use to produce good regional shows for their area already now often have to share with one or two other regions so the localness factor has gone along presumably with a lot of the audience.

[mrbernay]

Originally Posted by sussex

I like the bit where Grade goes on about the current regions not giving maximum value to viewers.Well i'm sure he means ITV shareholders really.Its been a few years now since any of the English regions have given much value to viewers.With London getting items about Warwickshire and Cornwall about Kent the whole thing is absurd.But don't get fooled that he's worried about providing a better regional service,just a lower cost one and if possible none at all.As to the larger regions now getting better audiences well he would say that,wouldn't he if he wanted to close the smaller ones down.In any case, the franchises which use to produce good regional shows for their area already now often have to share with one or two other regions so the localness factor has gone along presumably with a lot of the audience.

I refer you to my post #2 in this thread. I think we agree on quite a few points...

[PDMB]

Originally Posted by mrbernay

You still haven't convinced me that my regional divisions aren't the right ones. To answer a few possibilities. YTV+ Tyne Tees, as far as population goes, would be no bigger than Granada + Border England. Central and Anglia already have substantial overlaps in the Northants, Leics, etc area, and a population which would be similar to the two preceeding regions (this is, of course, minus Oxford, which would become part of a larger South region, which, in itself, as population goes, would rival the others (and with London would be an equal as far as advertising spending power goes). The local progs are still West + South West; Anglia is now twinning with Yorkshire for their regional opt-out on Tuesdays, so a switch to twinning with Central wouldn't be a problem. The TV mags will change as needs be. TV Times is already a national mag (= England; Wales; Scotland; NI editions); the Border Radio Times is part of the Scottish edition....

In the news item, Michael Grade... said Wales was one region where the map still made sense (or words similiar) ... this means it is more than advertsinig revenue which will come into consideration, like general sociological rules.

Yorkshire and Anglia simply won't happen.... Essex and West Yorkshire could be different countries!! ITV will not dare recommend a region which traverses large chunks of 'The North' and the 'South'. I think Anglia and Meridian is a much better fit because....

Most of the Anglia region like most of the Meridian region is commuter territory for London (even parts of Norfolk these days, this regularly grumbled about on the lcoal media in the county) Cambridgeshire is also very popular with commuters these days. Therefore Anglia region is very 'southern' in feel. The daily life issues in small market towns in the East are similar to the daily life issues in small market towns in the SE.

The Anglia and Meridian regions are both made up of small cities, large commuter towns, and well- farmed countryside. The Anglia Region therefore as a lot more in common with the Meridian region than it does with the Yorkshire region. They are no big industrial cities in either the Anglia or Meridian regions..in the same way that there is in the Yorkshire Region.

The other thing that Anglia and Meridian will have is viewers who delibrately chose them over London, in the days of stronger regional identities. Therefore, there will be people in both regions whilst commuting into London, who will want to see something on their telly, which reminds them they chose to not live in it.

This all before we talk about advertising revenue--- Anglia and Meridian are both wealthy regions and the two put together, will easily make as much as the Central Region, bearing in mind ITV would be able to point out, that the average income per head in a new ITV South & East Region is high, to get more out of advertisers.

Therefore I am much more confident that ITV will want to marry Anglia and Meridian, it is a natural region to me (especially now Oxford will be included to complete the loop around London), for a company that is supplying a very limited amount of regional output.

[sussex]

Originally Posted by mrbernay

I refer you to my post #2 in this thread. I think we agree on quite a few points...

Yes,we do.Interestingly Border has over the years had one of the best percentages of people watching ITV in the whole country.I somehow doubt that this has suddenly changed.If they suddenly start getting mostly news about Manchester and Liverpool it certainly will decline!-and i expect STV will be allowed to have the Nothern part of Border's region as they have requested if this happens.

[sussex]

Originally Posted by PDMB

In the news item, Michael Grade... said Wales was one region where the map still made sense (or words similiar) ... this means it is more than advertsinig revenue which will come into consideration, like general sociological rules.

Yorkshire and Anglia simply won't happen.... Essex and West Yorkshire could be different countries!! ITV will not dare recommend a region which traverses large chunks of 'The North' and the 'South'. I think Anglia and Meridian is a much better fit because....

Most of the Anglia region like most of the Meridian region is commuter territory for London (even parts of Norfolk these days, this regularly grumbled about on the lcoal media in the county) Cambridgeshire is also very popular with commuters these days. Therefore Anglia region is very 'southern' in feel. The daily life issues in small market towns in the East are similar to the daily life issues in small market towns in the SE.

The Anglia and Meridian regions are both made up of small cities, large commuter towns, and well- farmed countryside. The Anglia Region therefore as a lot more in common with the Meridian region than it does with the Yorkshire region. They are no big industrial cities in either the Anglia or Meridian regions..in the same way that there is in the Yorkshire Region.

The other thing that Anglia and Meridian will have is viewers who delibrately chose them over London, in the days of stronger regional identities. Therefore, there will be people in both regions whilst commuting into London, who will want to see something on their telly, which reminds them they chose to not live in it.

This all before we talk about advertising revenue--- Anglia and Meridian are both wealthy regions and the two put together, will easily make as much as the Central Region, bearing in mind ITV would be able to point out, that the average income per head in a new ITV South & East Region is high, to get more out of advertisers.

Therefore I am much more confident that ITV will want to marry Anglia and Meridian, it is a natural region to me (especially now Oxford will be included to complete the loop around London), for a company that is supplying a very limited amount of regional output.

He has to say Wales is different because it is a seperate nation but also as OFCOM have ruled they must have three hours of non-news local programmes a week as opposed to half an hour.I bet he would sell that region off to someone else given the chance!>

[mrbernay]

Originally Posted by PDMB

In the news item, Michael Grade... said Wales was one region where the map still made sense (or words similiar) ... this means it is more than advertsinig revenue which will come into consideration, like general sociological rules.

Yorkshire and Anglia simply won't happen.... Essex and West Yorkshire could be different countries!! ITV will not dare recommend a region which traverses large chunks of 'The North' and the 'South'. I think Anglia and Meridian is a much better fit because....

Most of the Anglia region like most of the Meridian region is commuter territory for London (even parts of Norfolk these days, this regularly grumbled about on the lcoal media in the county) Cambridgeshire is also very popular with commuters these days. Therefore Anglia region is very 'southern' in feel. The daily life issues in small market towns in the East are similar to the daily life issues in small market towns in the SE.

The Anglia and Meridian regions are both made up of small cities, large commuter towns, and well- farmed countryside. The Anglia Region therefore as a lot more in common with the Meridian region than it does with the Yorkshire region. They are no big industrial cities in either the Anglia or Meridian regions..in the same way that there is in the Yorkshire Region.

The other thing that Anglia and Meridian will have is viewers who delibrately chose them over London, in the days of stronger regional identities. Therefore, there will be people in both regions whilst commuting into London, who will want to see something on their telly, which reminds them they chose to not live in it.

This all before we talk about advertising revenue--- Anglia and Meridian are both wealthy regions and the two put together, will easily make as much as the Central Region, bearing in mind ITV would be able to point out, that the average imcome per head in a new ITV South & East Region is high, to ge tmore out of advertisers.

Therefore I am much more confident that ITV will want to Anglia and Meridian , it is a natural region to me, for a company that is supplying a very limited amount of regional output.

Wales is a national region, so it has to be separate like Scotland an NI.
IMO your twinning of Meridian and Anglia does not hold up - you are talking about a region that goes from Lincolnshire to Dorset. If, as you say, it is commuter belt then it should be with London, which is the only thing they have in common, but London will also be a separate region. OK if you want to split Meridian and put Meridian SE (Dover + Bluebell Hill) in with Anglia, there are certain things in common, but that would reduce the Meridian South + Thames Valley to too great an extent. You are forgetting that the East Midlands and East Anglia have far more in common than East Anglia and Dorset (and originally, the Belmont transmitter was part of the Anglia region). I know that Belmont is now YTV, but Waltham covers a lot of the same area. Agriculturally, it is the same: flat plains... And that is still why I think a greater Central + Anglia region would be the favoured option. However, only time, Michael Grade , and the accountants, will tell

[PDMB]

Sorry mrbernay... read your post wrong.

Anglia-Central, is more likely than Anglia- Yorkshire . However I still feel that Anglia-Meridian is the most likely.

Sociologically the gap between the East and the Midlands is smaller, than the gap between the East and Yorkshire, but for the same reasons as I stated in my last post, I think Anglia- Meridian is the best option for Anglia.

[mrbernay]

Originally Posted by PDMB

Sorry mrbernay... read your post wrong.

Anglia-Central, is more likely than Anglia- Yorkshire . However I still feel that Anglia-Meridian is the most likely.

Sociologically the gap between the East and the Midlands is smaller, than the gap between the East and Yorkshire, but for the same reasons as I stated in my last post, I think Anglia- Meridian is the best option for Anglia.

We shall see around 2012

[sussex]

Bournemouth(Meridian) has nothing whatsoever in common with Norwich(Norfolk) and anyone tuning in to news shows with items from places as far apart as this would likely be bewildered and turn -off but perhaps this is what Grade wants anyway-if the audience dwindles further he will have the justification to drop local programmes altogether.I still don't think the Meridian region will be linked with Anglia but for all the hours of local or multi-regional programmes we are going to get soon it becomes somewhat academic exactly what region joins another.