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Old 23-07-2007, 12:30
Optimus Prime
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Why does line rental cost as much as it does? it just seems like easy cash.
does anyone know how much profit BT, Virgin etc.. make on line rental
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Old 23-07-2007, 16:24
qpw3141
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For the cost of your line rental, BT have to maintain a physical line from the nearest exchange to your premises and some termination equipment, plust a proportion of the cost of maintaining the exchange.

As the line cost is constant, people living near the exchange effectively subsidise those living far away (in the same way that letters posted to high population density areas subsidise those posted to the highlands and islands).

Given that BT are responsible for this line no matter how much it costs to repair or replace it doesn't seem an unreasonable charge.
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Old 23-07-2007, 16:58
Heinz
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The 'gas pipes, water pipes and electricity cables argument' will follow shortly.
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Old 23-07-2007, 18:45
qpw3141
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The 'gas pipes, water pipes and electricity cables argument' will follow shortly.
How does that one go?

Do people wonder why a little bit of cable costs more than a gas pipe or mains cable?

Do they think they have a personal cable from their house to the nearst power station?

Or their own gas pipe to Siberia?
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Old 07-08-2007, 10:04
stevem999
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No, I think Heinz is probably alluding to the fact that all other utilities can be bought from whichever provider you want e.g British Gas, Powergen, United Utilities etc etc but there is no requirement to carry on paying a 'rental' to the original 'industry' i.e. British Gas or your local electricity or water board etc for maintaining your water pipe, sewer etc.

Why should the phone system be any different?
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Old 07-08-2007, 10:30
qpw3141
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No, I think Heinz is probably alluding to the fact that all other utilities can be bought from whichever provider you want e.g British Gas, Powergen, United Utilities etc etc but there is no requirement to carry on paying a 'rental' to the original 'industry' i.e. British Gas or your local electricity or water board etc for maintaining your water pipe, sewer etc.

Why should the phone system be any different?
Because tha't the way the government decided to implement it.

To answer your question, you only have to listen to all the horror stories from people who have gone with LLU (and particularly those who have tried to get back).

The problem with the way the government of the day handled the BT privitisation was that they should have split the company into two:

One part responsible for the lines and terminating equipment in exchanges, and the other for carry calls between exchanges.

Then the system could have worked in the same way as the power utilities (you do NOT have a choice as to who handles your water and sewage).

In fact, that is the way it's going now, but there still seem to be more horror stories from people who go with LLU.

That may, of course, change in the future.
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Old 07-08-2007, 14:55
mutleygold
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With Toucan, line rental only costs £8.99 per month for 12 months paid directly to Toucan.
I transferred to Toucan from BT & they have been great. Their 1571 service is so much better as well. I have been given £10 credit for signing up online & £25 for choosing Toucan & all UK call centres.
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Old 08-08-2007, 20:15
3dom
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I only need a BT line for internet but I still have to pay the line rental, I didn't have to pay any line rental when I had NTL cable broadband only so who pays for that?
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Old 08-08-2007, 21:55
littleboo
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It's a different pricing model as VM own and have exclusive use of their network, they can cross subsidise between products if it suits them, all the revenue ends up in a VM pot somewhere.

BT's business is regulated and cross subsidising by BT is not generally allowed. They also have to make the network available to competitors but also maintain it. Under the cucrrent model, without line rental, you could end up where BT receives no revenue from a customer and yet still has to maintain a line for that customer.

In some countries you can have a line for ADSL with no telephone service on it at a reduced rate.

However, at the end of the day, it comes down to how you slice the cake and balance the books. It's all got to be paid for by someone, just a case of how those costs are apportioned.
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Old 08-08-2007, 23:03
3dom
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I wonder if when all the UK is on 21CN we too could have an option of adsl without a telephone but pay a reduced line rental
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Old 08-08-2007, 23:24
openreachpeep
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I wonder if when all the UK is on 21CN we too could have an option of adsl without a telephone but pay a reduced line rental
although openreach still works to a budget provided by BT,the feeling amongst the ranks is that we will go the way of O2 and be finally split off. we have our own internal targets and generate our own revenues so to be honest i don't think it will be long before the above is true. purely cos if they seperated us BT couldn't possibly charge excessive line rental for a product they no longer maintain. as it stands now the cost of maintaining the network comes out of our budget for provision and repair, and we as a group get the money back from your service providers. so watch this space as it is only a matter of time.
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Old 09-08-2007, 08:39
poppasmurf
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With Toucan, line rental only costs £8.99 per month for 12 months paid directly to Toucan.
I transferred to Toucan from BT & they have been great. Their 1571 service is so much better as well. I have been given £10 credit for signing up online & £25 for choosing Toucan & all UK call centres.
Their 1571 service is better? Does that mean if i ring you and your engaged, I don't get connected and charged for the call by being told 'you're talking on the phone'? I don't think so.

Do us all a favour and drop 1571!

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...html?p=2408629
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:21
qpw3141
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although openreach still works to a budget provided by BT,the feeling amongst the ranks is that we will go the way of O2 and be finally split off. we have our own internal targets and generate our own revenues so to be honest i don't think it will be long before the above is true. purely cos if they seperated us BT couldn't possibly charge excessive line rental for a product they no longer maintain. as it stands now the cost of maintaining the network comes out of our budget for provision and repair, and we as a group get the money back from your service providers. so watch this space as it is only a matter of time.
I really hope this comes to pass.

It would make things so much more transparant.

Of course, there are two models that could be used:

1) You (Openreach) charge a customer for the piece of wire and the customer contacts you directly for faults and installations.

2) The customers main telephony provider and/or ISP pay Openreach out of what the charge the customer.


I hope they go with option (1) as it's completely transparant and prevents the possibility of your IPS/TP failing to properly pass on fault reports or blaming Openreach for a problem that is actuall due to its own incompetance. The only disadvantage with (1) is that it's an extra bill.
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:51
Mystic Eddy
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If Openreach split from BT, wouldn't that reduce the possibility of FTTH because they wouldn't be able to access BT's cash pot?
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Old 09-08-2007, 20:25
brownboyjnr
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Their 1571 service is better? Does that mean if i ring you and your engaged, I don't get connected and charged for the call by being told 'you're talking on the phone'? I don't think so.

Do us all a favour and drop 1571!

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...html?p=2408629
My god man are you Heinz in disguise
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Old 09-08-2007, 20:49
Heinz
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My god man are you Heinz in disguise
A disciple.
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Old 09-08-2007, 23:25
openreachpeep
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I really hope this comes to pass.

It would make things so much more transparant.

Of course, there are two models that could be used:

1) You (Openreach) charge a customer for the piece of wire and the customer contacts you directly for faults and installations.

2) The customers main telephony provider and/or ISP pay Openreach out of what the charge the customer.


I hope they go with option (1) as it's completely transparant and prevents the possibility of your IPS/TP failing to properly pass on fault reports or blaming Openreach for a problem that is actuall due to its own incompetance. The only disadvantage with (1) is that it's an extra bill.
as it stands now, we do charge the customer for the piece of wire, but that is your service provider. and that is how it works now. everyone to us now are EU (end users) and what you want is irrelevant, we provide whatever (who you pay your bill too) wants us to provide. i know it sounds sh%^$ but thats the way it is. don't get me wrong their are many lads who will go "that extra mile" to help you out, but even that is being removed.
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Old 10-08-2007, 20:37
poppasmurf
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My god man are you Heinz in disguise

Good grief no. In fact, I'm still boycotting Heinz for moving production of HP sauce (Euro Sauce) to Holland.
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Old 11-08-2007, 15:46
openreachpeep
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If Openreach split from BT, wouldn't that reduce the possibility of FTTH because they wouldn't be able to access BT's cash pot?
as i said, they will gradually bring our budgets in line with what were generating in revenue. to slowely wein us of suckling BT's tit.
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:12
qpw3141
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as i said, they will gradually bring our budgets in line with what were generating in revenue. to slowely wein us of suckling BT's tit.
So you are saying that currently, OpenReach are a loss making enterprise?

That's bad news since I only effectively use that 'part' of BT so if it's detached and has to stand alone it will need to put up prices.

And as I don't use BT for anything else I won't benefit from any corresponing reduction from any of the other elements of their business.
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Old 12-08-2007, 14:01
openreachpeep
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So you are saying that currently, OpenReach are a loss making enterprise?

That's bad news since I only effectively use that 'part' of BT so if it's detached and has to stand alone it will need to put up prices.

And as I don't use BT for anything else I won't benefit from any corresponing reduction from any of the other elements of their business.
i don't think that we are running at a loss, as we are currently performing above the targets set to us by senior management, the greater budget is to prepare us for when we fly the roost. additional hiring and training of new recruits to cope with the additional work. we're currently in a big push to improve the network where areas (bad joints, faulty cable lengths) are identified by the engineer and a job is created to bring it upto standard. where as in the past we would identify the problems and it would get swallowed in a big machine and lost for ever. the new system allows us to take patch ownership and improve our own little network.
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Old 12-08-2007, 21:46
3dom
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I think you guys from openreach are doing a great job, where i live they have been there busy throughout the valley.
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Old 13-08-2007, 01:29
TheFirstCut
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Good grief no. In fact, I'm still boycotting Heinz for moving production of HP sauce (Euro Sauce) to Holland.
We too have been boycotting Heinz due to the HP sauce move, we will never ever buy Heinz products again.

However I agree with Mr Heinz here and on MSE about 1571.
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