Hi

Yesterday our home phone went dead - No dial tone and engaged if you call us. Broadband connection still fine though.

We are with BT so I called them and they did a line test. Said it was a loop error (whatever that may be). I was instructed to unplug eveything (2 phones and Broadband which is a BT installation) and test with a corded phone in the master socket. However, after a hunt around the house it looks as though we don't have a master socket. The phone line comes out of a flower bed in front of the house and into a box (with Post Office telecom written on it) on the front wall outside the house that is sealed with a cable tie. Five cables come out of the box, go into the house and end up at 5 separate sockets (all dead). One of these is the shiny new-ish BT ADSL and phone socket.

We have a BT engineer coming on Friday to fix the problem and my question is - Are we likely to be charged for this fix? and what is he likely to fix? We have only been in the house a year so have no idea who put in which wires (Except for the broadband install as the previous owners left us the receipt).

Thanks

Charlie

I am having the exact same problem as you - happened at the same time too.

I was told I would be charged £116 for a call out and £99 for each hour the engineer stayed. I declined and am wondering what to do next.

I think this is correct but if it's a loop error then it can mean that some where from the exchange to your socket there is a break in the line - thats why your line is engaged. There should be no charge unless the fault is your side of the master socket.

juner

I was told about the charges as well but we decided to book an engineer anyway as we need our landline and, as we have no master socket, I can't tell whether it is a problem in the house or not. Hopefully the fault is in the mystery 'Post Office' box screwed to the front wall of our house - It was very windy and raining horizontally yesterday morning so maybe we got rain driven into that box.

It does appear weird that our ADSL is fine (We've always had and still do have pretty much full 2Mb/s).

Yeah our ADSL line is fine too. If it was up to me I'd have booked an engineer too, but as I'm not the one who fixes the bills the decision it out of my hands. Hope you get it fixed, keep us posted,

sounds like your line has been "star-wired" from your ug feed out-side. was common practice in the old days, but is a major no-no now (plays havoc with b/band). it's rare that the fault is in the box, but if it's an old post office one, then the screw terminals inside do get corroded and short circuit (loop). because of the star wiring there is no way for to seperate the internal from our network. so you shouldn't be charged for work(in the old days) however we should(though not all engineers do) raise a charge to remove the star wiring and bring it to standard. this is billed to your service provider in an agreement between us and them, and they shouldn't pass that onto you.

The BT Engineer came on Friday and he found one of the extensions was dead. He found that, when the cable was originally put in, whoever did it managed to hammer the nail on on a cable clip through the cable's insulation and he reckoned that over time this had damaged the wires. He pulled the cable apart and the nail had damaged the insulation on one of the inner wires.

We've only been in the house a year and do not know the full history of the house but, what we do know, is that one of our 5 extension goes to a room that was part of an extension to the house that was built in 1980.

Here's the fun bit - BT are going to charge us for the fix as apparently 'the customer damaged external wiring'. I find this hard take because:

1. The offending damage was caused in 1980 when the phone extension was put in.

2. It was not caused by the customer (me). Whoever put the extension in caused the damage. As the box on the outside of the house has 'Post Office Telecom' written on and was sealed with a cable tie I think the line must have been by Post Office Telecom as was (i.e. BT).

I do remember that nobody but BT was allowed to work on your phone lines but I'm not sure when this was relaxed. Before or after 1980? I don't know.

3. The engineer also said (in his report) that, as we have a new-ish BT installed ADSL box in the house then that is our main box. Rubbish - we still have 3 other working phone points in the house all of which come off the BT junction box outside the house. Just because the ADSL box is relatively new doesn't make it a main box - it is just one of (now) 4 working phone lines in the house.

Anyway - I am going to dispute the call-out charge when it appears on our bill. I've already cancelled our direct debit in case they try to take it.

If anyone can tell me whether or not I have a leg to stand on it would be very helpful.

Thanks

the chances are the rest of the sockets are wired off the back of the adsl box(your master), but the cables go in to the dli(post office box) outside then along the same cable,but on a different pair to the adsl box. there is a big grey area at the mo, when it comes to who owns what wiring wise. there are a lot (millions) of houses out there that are not upto the standard that we work to now. it has always been the case that all ext's even thoses installed in the 80's are only guarenteed for a year. (unless rented) sadly you've suffered from poor workmanship. i've been back to customers where they've been "billed" before in the past and they've managed to get there money back. it's just a case of argue the toss and threaten to leave. 50 /50 really.

Thanks for the reply openreachpeep - arguing the toss is exactly what I intend to do (I'm pretty good at it ).

As far as I can tell the other lines aren't wired to the ADSL box. I traced the cables for all of our lines and they all run round the outside walls of the house until the spots opposites the sockets inside then they go thought wall into the house and straight into socket.

I suppose they could be connected with some creative wiring within the outside box. That may explain why none of the other sockets in the house need adsl filters.

Anyway - I am getting my arguing head on in readiness.

Ta

Charlie

Playing Devil's advocate for a moment, would you consider 20 years an acceptable lifespan, before something needs replacing.
I think this is the difficulty you will face, its isn't your fault the wiring no longer works. On the other hand BT can't be expected to offer a 20 year gaurantee.
I would approach BT in a friendly, polite and professional manner as you are looking for a goodwill gesture. Going in expecting an argument might well not get what you want.

Sorry no - This is a totally misleading response!

The method of testing an exchange line is actually quite basic. & traditionally this involved a 80V drycell battery

When the line is tested various conditions are looked for.

These being Loop - that is a connection between the 2 wires of the pair.

A disconnection - that is the line tester is unable to see the resistor and capacitor in the master line jack

Earth "A" leg - which is what is says - the "A" leg of the exchange line is in contact with Earth

Earth "B" leg - which is again what it says - the "B" leg of the exchange line is in contact with Earth

Receive Negative "A" leg - that is there is a voltage on the "A" leg of the line

Receive Negative "B" leg - that is there is a voltage on the "B" leg of the line.

Now a line that is DISconnected - either disconnection of either "A" , "B" or both legs will result in no dial tone and if the number is called the originator will receive Ring tone no reply.

If the line is loop (or earth "B" leg) and if the number is called then the originator will receive engaged tone. I suppose if the exchange were suitably equipted to recognise what is in effect a PG condition - Permanent Glow - then there is no reason why a Rec Ann couldn't be returned to the originator saying somthing like connection is not possible at this time - or similar.

I hope my post has been of use.

As I stated when I made the post, “I think” – therefore I wasn’t sure if it was correct. I was just following on from my experience of when contractors managed to cut a group of lines – the line was dead, no dial tone however any incoming call on the line received line busy, engaged.

Thought I'd post a progress on this.

The dispute is still dragging on but almost at a conclusion.
I went through BT Complaints review and finally Otelo to resolve this.

Throughout this BT have maintained the stance that the fault occurred on 'internal wiring that is the responsiblility of the customer'. At the same time they have rather curiously affirmed that the junction box outside our house is their property and we are not allowed to open it up as it us part of the circuit belonging to the master socket and we may be liable for any damage to the socket's wiring.

My point is; that means we cannot maintain the wiring we are meant to be responsible for as BT won't even allow us to test it.

Apparently our complaint is with the ombudsman him(her)self for a decison and we should find out this week.
Will post back with the conclusion.

Here's hoping.

Nice reply - best of luck, hope it turns out well for you

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...d.php?t=818841

Actually, check the 9th post in this thread from Ahso - dunno if they're right or not, but... worth a look!

A break in the line between the exchange and the house would surely mean that the broadband signal couldn't get through? If the line was open circuit, nothing would work?

My mum is having the same sort of problem at the moment with her phone line. The phone line became engaged, could not make or receive calls. Broadband was working fine. Engineer came out on Friday, said the fault is in the telephone exchange and now some work needs doing in there.

Broadband has now gone down. Guess it won't be back on until all work has been completed in the exchange now.