[madisey]

When recording widescreen pictures, how come a (say) 3 hour tape still lasts 3 hours? Isn't there more picture information to go on the tape so shouldn't the tape last for less time?

[monkeysoup]

Widescreen video is the same 625(?) line signal as 4:3 - it's just that everything in a widescreen picture is squashed, and you need to stretch the signal back to make things right (the widescreen switching signal which you CAN'T RECORD OFF SKY tells your telly to go to 16:9 mode). Otherwise you'd need a new VCR, telly, dual 4:3/16:9 broadcasting setup etc. Arguably this gives slightly lower resolution than 4:3 (one signal line holding a line of 4:3 OR 16:9 picture) but it's not really noticeable.

[mjk79]

There is absolutely no difference in the resolution used to broadcast anamorphic widescreen material or 4:3 material...

16:9 material is broadcast as a squashed up image - squashed into the same size resolution that 4:3 material is broadcast in, hence in the UK:

16:9 material has a resolution of 720x576

and

4:3 material has a resolution of 720x576 too

However some countries (such as the US, Japan and Australia) broadcast widescreen material in a proper resolution which has correct 16:9 proportions...

[ne0n-tetra]

Quote:

Originally posted by monkeysoup
Widescreen video is the same 625(?) line signal as 4:3 - it's just that everything in a widescreen picture is squashed, and you need to stretch the signal back to make things right (the widescreen switching signal which you CAN'T RECORD OFF SKY tells your telly to go to 16:9 mode). Otherwise you'd need a new VCR, telly, dual 4:3/16:9 broadcasting setup etc. Arguably this gives slightly lower resolution than 4:3 (one signal line holding a line of 4:3 OR 16:9 picture) but it's not really noticeable.

If I ask my SKY box for a WS-with-letterbox signal (for viewing on my 4:3 TV), presumably my TV will receive a 576-row signal which includes the letterboxing in it...? (Thus recording and playing back will keep the letterboxing...)

[monkeysoup]

What you record is whatever you get out of the digibox (either 16:9 letterbox in a 4:3 signal) or 16:9 anamorphic. The digibox produces a composite video signal, the vcr grabs it, and that's it. Selecting 4:3 letterbox mode merely makes your digibox down-convert a 16:9 picture (to about 3/4 of its resolution) to lower-res 16:9-letterboxed-within-a-4:3-frame.

The only thing which doesn't get recorded is the widescreen switching signal, because SKY helpfully decided not to include a line 23 WSS on the video signal, only a separate scart pin 8 control on RGB - you have to switch TV aspect ratio manually on playback and record the ratio with a pen.

[davey_do_little]

Quote:

Originally posted by madisey
When recording widescreen pictures, how come a (say) 3 hour tape still lasts 3 hours? Isn't there more picture information to go on the tape so shouldn't the tape last for less time?

Am I missing something here?

Surely, how much you can get on a tape depends on:

a) the length of the tape
b) the speed of the recording

a) is fixed and b) can sometimes be switched

Does your theory suggest that you could record a blank screen to infinity??????

[jenzie]

Quote:

Originally posted by madisey
When recording widescreen pictures, how come a (say) 3 hour tape still lasts 3 hours? Isn't there more picture information to go on the tape so shouldn't the tape last for less time?

Is this a joke?

[madisey]

Quote:

Originally posted by jenzie
Is this a joke?

No, it wasn't a joke. My original question was about the extra parts of a widescreen picture (although as someone's told above, it is broadcast as 4:3).

Compared with a 4:3 picture there's extra picture in a widescreen picture, so where does this extra data go if you're recording for three hours on a 3 hr tape --- is what I asked.

Quote:

Does your theory suggest that you could record a blank screen to infinity??????

No, because even blank screen is picture isn't it, just happens to be all black (or snow).

[steven123]

Quote:

When recording widescreen pictures, how come a (say) 3 hour tape still lasts 3 hours? Isn't there more picture information to go on the tape so shouldn't the tape last for less time?

if the picture was recorded digitally then maybe this would have some effect like for example a variable bit rate might be used and scenes with more detail and on screen action might be recorded with a higher bit rate meaning they would ultimately take up more space. For example when recording a simple black screen this would take up virtually no space at all because there is very little data required to store it.

However VHS VCRs are entirely anologue, they will just record from whatever you connect to the scart or rf input regardless of the ratio, resolution detail etc. Also regardless of the resolution or how detailed the image of whatever you record from VCRs will always record at the same 240 lines (VHS) resolution which will give a pretty rough picture by todays standards but VHS has been around for over 20 years so what can you expect

[iain]

if you record stuff with the sound turned down, a 3 hr tape will last 3.5 hrs.

Iain, sorry

[kev]

Quote:

Originally posted by iain
if you record stuff with the sound turned down, a 3 hr tape will last 3.5 hrs.

Iain, sorry

All my Maxell 3 hour tapes last 3 hours and 13 minutes, 23 seconds anyways
And on my mums VCR, thats 9 hours, 40 minutes and 9seconds in EP Mode.....

[monkeysoup]

I've always found that stated tape lengths are the minimum, not necessarily the actual, length. It's quite usual to find a little bit of free space, depending on manufacturer. Your vcr and general tape use and streching might also account for slightly odd tape lengths. It's just not always wise to assume that you'll definitely have an extra few minutes slack to allow for programmes overrunning.

[chris_paulin]

Quote:

Originally posted by kev
All my Maxell 3 hour tapes last 3 hours and 13 minutes, 23 seconds anyways
And on my mums VCR, thats 9 hours, 40 minutes and 9seconds in EP Mode.....

The picture and sound quality in EP mode must be terrible. Do you even still get a hi-fi stereo sound track on tapes recorded at that

[Orbitalzone]

EP mode can look reasonable actually!

My Panasonic has EP mode and in stereo hifi to boot..... the quality isn't any real different to LP modes on the lower cost VCRs


As for the original question, let's not take the piss too much... it's actually not such a silly sounding question if you're new to digital TV and such like.... OK VHS videos are analogue but many other devices on the market (true they are digital) use variable bit rate and as a result the recording time varies depending on content quality etc....


Regarding widescreen broadcasts that come from a digibox - all images outputted are technically the same format - it's just that a 16/9 anamorphic widescreen picture is just more picture squeezed into the same 4/3 shape. So a widescreen TV unstretches the image to fill the screen and correct the aspect ratio (the shape)

A video recorder see's only a 4/3 picture regardless of whether it's 16/9 anamorphic, letterboxed or 4/3.

THIS SITE gives some useful info on widescreen. It's a USA site but still handy even if some technicalities are different regarding TV broadcasts.

[chris_paulin]

I think it would be impossible for VBR onto tape if a recording could be made digitally. The tape speed would be up and down all over the place.

[Orbitalzone]

Yes most likely, I wasn't really suggesting tape would be ideal...

However, I thought that it wasn't such a silly question as some others might have thought...

Many people aren't that technically minded as to the ins and outs of electronics. Many digital electronic devices like Minidisc, Digital Cameras, Camcorders, etc all allow more storage the lower the quality or vice versa. Seeing as how the word 'digital' is applied to every device under the sun, including VCR's (digital tracking, digital stereo, digital display etc) the original question may not actually be so daft sounding to someone who doesn't know.

[kev]

Quote:

Originally posted by chris_paulin
The picture and sound quality in EP mode must be terrible. Do you even still get a hi-fi stereo sound track on tapes recorded at that

On my parents Panasonic with EP you get stereo sound, although it does sound like AM Radio, the picture is no different to SP on my Matsui VCR....

[nickcoe]

Quote:

Originally posted by kev
On my parents Panasonic with EP you get stereo sound, although it does sound like AM Radio, the picture is no different to SP on my Matsui VCR....

so you get what you pay for then. My only problem with VHS and widescreen is that those cheapo 'daily' usage tapes do not give a good picture quality when regarding widescreen images. I tried the most expensive VHS tape i could get from Currys and i was quite impressed with the quality from my Sony slv-se700 whch is by no means a great VCR but a good one. Good quality SCART cables are a must too, particuarly if you send the data in both directions as i do with my setup.

[kev]

Quote:

Originally posted by nickcoe
so you get what you pay for then. My only problem with VHS and widescreen is that those cheapo 'daily' usage tapes do not give a good picture quality when regarding widescreen images. I tried the most expensive VHS tape i could get from Currys and i was quite impressed with the quality from my Sony slv-se700 whch is by no means a great VCR but a good one. Good quality SCART cables are a must too, particuarly if you send the data in both directions as i do with my setup.

I've got a Maxell Video that i've been using for the best part of three years now, doing time shifting recordings.

The first half hour of the tape is now terrible - sound levels all over the place, BBC ONE logos bleeding through.

However when i first got it, i found it very hard to deifferenciate between that and over the air analogue....

I really should replace the tape - i start recordings 25 minutes in now as the first 20 are that bad - probably been recorded on some 800 times, and watched the same!

On Mono sourced programmes (i.e. Sky Via Coax) the Panni in EP mode sounds fine - but as most are NICAM that isn't that useful (Five actually looks better on VHS than directly on the TV as it hides all the snow!)

[nickcoe]

Analog.. whats that? i haven't seen a snowy picture in a very long time. I do however have plenty of blocks and pips and squeeks from my digital terrestial, and the occasional stuttering on digital cable. I'd actually forgotten about snowy analog images. Maybe i'll watch one tonight to remember the good old days. Sigh.....

[kev]

Quote:

Originally posted by nickcoe
Analog.. whats that? i haven't seen a snowy picture in a very long time. I do however have plenty of blocks and pips and squeeks from my digital terrestial, and the occasional stuttering on digital cable. I'd actually forgotten about snowy analog images. Maybe i'll watch one tonight to remember the good old days. Sigh.....

- Back home the footy on Sky wins so my mum has to tape analogue....

If i had another two digi boxes (VCR and PC) analogue will be redundant for me once Nottingham DAB starts....

Crystal Clear Digital Sound vs Snowy and Hissy Analogue

Digital wins every time

[nickcoe]

i quite like the way that the roads in nottingham have all been ripped to pieces whilst they put in the tram system.

digital does win. It is wierd when you go back to analog becuase the picture quality that you always considered good now looks awful. The biggest advantage of digital for me is that i can bypass PAL by using the RGB output from my cable box.

[kev]

Quote:

Originally posted by nickcoe
i quite like the way that the roads in nottingham have all been ripped to pieces whilst they put in the tram system.

And to rub salt in the wound, they have decided it is a great time to meddle with all the other arterial roads into the city