02 will be Charging for local and national rate calls

Oops_Carole · 02-09-2007, 18:25

Quote:

Got my tariff cost reduced and texts and minutes increased. (£20/month for 400 minutes and 1000 texts)

On the contract thats in dispute I got a new Orbit xda and free sat nav software , 400 mins and 500 texts for £25 pm only 2 months ago.

I sold the phone for £280 which almost paid for thec 12 month contract

I thinks its best I cancel the contract and look around for a new 12 month contract , getting more mins , texts and a new phone , which I will sell on again to pay for another 12 month contract as I am happy with my current phone

Pricey41 · 03-09-2007, 11:12

It pays to have a moan, just got my bill cut from £30 to £15 for the same plan so pretty pleased with that.

MsCongeniality · 03-09-2007, 11:23

20p per minute is a lot. You may not get them included with other providers, but you can get them for less than 20p.
I don't make 0870/0845 calls from my mobile because I get charged 12p per min (orange) never mind 20p.

Captain W · 17-09-2007, 01:30

Both myself and my partner are on o2 and never got this text message, letter or even an email about it! They get a good £80 a month out of us and we use our mobiles for 08 numbers.

I think I'll just ask to cancel both contracts at the same time - I only came across this thread by accident - that was damn lucky.

When is the cut off for cancelling?

sla_steve · 17-09-2007, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain W

When is the cut off for cancelling?

End of Sept i think

coopermanyorks · 17-09-2007, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain W

Both myself and my partner are on o2 and never got this text message, letter or even an email about it! They get a good £80 a month out of us and we use our mobiles for 08 numbers.

I think I'll just ask to cancel both contracts at the same time - I only came across this thread by accident - that was damn lucky.

When is the cut off for cancelling?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sla_steve

End of Sept i think

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muck

Fine , so to clarify you must exit the contract DURING the 5 week notice period up to the end of september not after it.

I still assert that you have no concrete excuse to so do unless you usually call these numbers so if you wanna exit an o2 contract make some calls to 0870 and 0845 numbers pronto to cover yo ass

send an email to their customer care department .

28th September is the date mentioned

sla_steve · 17-09-2007, 11:07

friend of mine sent them an email saying he would like to leave.

has never called those numbers.

They emailed him his PAC code straight away - no phone calls, no haggling, no retention offers.

flagpole · 17-09-2007, 11:33

Just some more information on this...

Many of you will be aware of a similar dispute regarding vodafone changing their charges to unbundle MMS then data.

they were entirely within their rights to do this. if your read your T&Cs it says something to the effect that they may increase their charges provided they give you a months notice.

firther that this gives you the right to quit if this has a significant effect on you (with vod it was 10%) provided you tell them before this takes affect.

the change is based on your previous usage, not your new usage. don't let them suggest otherwise.

you will also got to keep your handset which is nice.

03 numbers will be part of your inclusive minutes, that's what they are for. they will be regulated with this in mind.

Ofcom will not help you. you want their third party dispute resolution service Otelo i think.

coopermanyorks · 17-09-2007, 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by sla_steve

friend of mine sent them an email saying he would like to leave.

has never called those numbers.

They emailed him his PAC code straight away - no phone calls, no haggling, no retention offers.

I emailed them to cancel and also received a reply confirming it will be cancelled on the 28 , no retention offer and no pac code

I just need to get my pac code

Do I need a pac code to transfer my existimg number from 02 to a new 02 contract ?

xjem · 17-09-2007, 16:03

which email address did you send the cancelation email too?, as i emailed an address on the website and got told i had to phone in, where some snotty pillock kept asking me why i wanted to cancel as it didnt make any sense because i wouldn't be able to get the calls free anywhere else

Pres.F · 17-09-2007, 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjem

which email address did you send the cancelation email too?, as i emailed an address on the website and got told i had to phone in, where some snotty pillock kept asking me why i wanted to cancel as it didnt make any sense because i wouldn't be able to get the calls free anywhere else

then you say "maybe not, but i did choose this contract because of those numbers and there are better talk plans around for me now that you are changing the rules"

xjem · 17-09-2007, 16:08

I did say that but because i only had a few numbers to 0845 etc, he was very snotty, Id rather do it via email and just get this cancelled.

Pres.F · 17-09-2007, 16:52

I have to say....I had been putting it off and putting it off but I finally called them to cancel half an hour ago (the resurrection of this thread reminded me) and they were very arsey with me...
saying I have only used the numbers 12 times, and not at all in the last 3 months....

but I stood my ground and asked him to put me through to a supervisor as I felt my rights as a consumer were being ignored, he relented and passed me through to the next tier.....who are sending me a PAC code in the next few days.

job done....but I did have to ask to speak to a supervisor.

JSemple3 · 17-09-2007, 17:48

Hm! Interesting to look at this thread. I have been looking for a way out of my O2 contract for quite a while (as I don't use my mobile and haven't for about 3 months or so) I'm still paying £20 a month for it and would save me money. Could this be my get out clause?

prking · 17-09-2007, 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by coopermanyorks

Do I need a pac code to transfer my existimg number from 02 to a new 02 contract ?

Depending on your existing contract with O2 it may not be possible to get another O2 contract until after a grace period of 6 months.

You can't port in the way you want, unless you are changing service provider. What you need to do is phone O2 and ask to be transferred to a different tariff (an internal port) rather than cancel your contract.

Pres.F · 17-09-2007, 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSemple3

Hm! Interesting to look at this thread. I have been looking for a way out of my O2 contract for quite a while (as I don't use my mobile and haven't for about 3 months or so) I'm still paying £20 a month for it and would save me money. Could this be my get out clause?

certainly....the only reason I ditched mine is to get the mobile for free...I'd let it run otherwise...it's basically a free upgrade.

you will have to make sure that you seem to have used these numbers...you could, of course start using them now....and then say that someone informed you after you used them that they would be chargeable.

what I found worked for me was to complain that you agreed to the contract because you knew you would have to use 0870 numbers in the future.....and that you always try to get an alternative number from SAYNOTO0870.COM...but on some occasions you have to use them and you know you will in the future.....and when you do use them you will be on for over an hour so it is a considerable loss....

they will say that you haven't used the numbers in the past...then you need to say that you intended to use them in the future - they can't prove you weren't and they will have to take your word for it.

you have to be persistant....at many points during my call i felt like just giving in and saying "oh forget it".....but thats why they pay the people on the other end of the line - to talk you out of it....but you'd be surprised what you can get if you stay on the phone and stand your ground

Pres.F · 17-09-2007, 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by prking

Depending on your existing contract with O2 it may not be possible to get another O2 contract until after a grace period of 6 months.

You can't port in the way you want, unless you are changing service provider. What you need to do is phone O2 and ask to be transferred to a different tariff (an internal port) rather than cancel your contract.

OR port out to a pay as you go sim on another network...THEN port back to pay monthly on o2 again.....I've done it before

JSemple3 · 17-09-2007, 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pres.F

certainly....the only reason I ditched mine is to get the mobile for free...I'd let it run otherwise...it's basically a free upgrade.

you will have to make sure that you seem to have used these numbers...you could, of course start using them now....and then say that someone informed you after you used them that they would be chargeable.

what I found worked for me was to complain that you agreed to the contract because you knew you would have to use 0870 numbers in the future.....and that you always try to get an alternative number from SAYNOTO0870.COM...but on some occasions you have to use them and you know you will in the future.....and when you do use them you will be on for over an hour so it is a considerable loss....

they will say that you haven't used the numbers in the past...then you need to say that you intended to use them in the future - they can't prove you weren't and they will have to take your word for it.

you have to be persistant....at many points during my call i felt like just giving in and saying "oh forget it".....but thats why they pay the people on the other end of the line - to talk you out of it....but you'd be surprised what you can get if you stay on the phone and stand your ground

I'll keep all of that in mind. I haven't really had too many problems when contacting O2 in the past about things and I've always paid my bills on time and what have you so I really don't see me having too many problems with this touch wood BUT if I do.........*whistles* I'll take notes and use some of these points if I have to. No point in me keeping a contract with something or somebody I don't use no more is there? Can always say there is every likelyhood that I would be using it a lot in the next couple of weeks (as pretty likely I will have to call a few 0845/0870 numbers before I go on a trip to sort out last minute things)

Pres.F · 17-09-2007, 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSemple3

I'll keep all of that in mind. I haven't really had too many problems when contacting O2 in the past about things and I've always paid my bills on time and what have you so I really don't see me having too many problems with this touch wood BUT if I do.........*whistles* I'll take notes and use some of these points if I have to. No point in me keeping a contract with something or somebody I don't use no more is there? Can always say there is every likelyhood that I would be using it a lot in the next couple of weeks (as pretty likely I will have to call a few 0845/0870 numbers before I go on a trip to sort out last minute things)

this is it...the main dispute I had with them was that they were quoting T&Cs which stated that the changes to the contract have to be deemed as cause of a significant disadvantage to me as a customer....but they have no idea what numbers i will use in the future - and i don't always use the same kind of numbers every month....so they will have to take my word for it.

and they eventually did.

p.s don't say "next couple of weeks" I don't think the changes will have taken effect by then....they are very picky

JSemple3 · 17-09-2007, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pres.F

this is it...the main dispute I had with them was that they were quoting T&Cs which stated that the changes to the contract have to be deemed as cause of a significant disadvantage to me as a customer....but they have no idea what numbers i will use in the future - and i don't always use the same kind of numbers every month....so they will have to take my word for it.

and they eventually did.

p.s don't say "next couple of weeks" I don't think the changes will have taken effect by then....they are very picky

Gotcha. I'll keep it all in mind. I've e-mailed them to start and I'll take it from there if they don't co-operate as to speak.

coopermanyorks · 17-09-2007, 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by prking

Depending on your existing contract with O2 it may not be possible to get another O2 contract until after a grace period of 6 months.

You can't port in the way you want, unless you are changing service provider. What you need to do is phone O2 and ask to be transferred to a different tariff (an internal port) rather than cancel your contract.

I am wanting to cancel my existing contract , thats direct with 02 and in my wifes name and take out a brand new contract in my name via DAP and get a new phone , new contract , free ds lite and £185 refund over the 12 month contract in my name

I was hoping to keep my existing 02 phone number on the new contract

dewoofe · 17-09-2007, 22:05

Hi new to this, was wondering if anyone has come across the Nokia N95, been thing of getting one but heard they have problems can anyone help

Pres.F · 17-09-2007, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by coopermanyorks

I am wanting to cancel my existing contract , thats direct with 02 and in my wifes name and take out a brand new contract in my name via DAP and get a new phone , new contract , free ds lite and £185 refund over the 12 month contract in my name

I was hoping to keep my existing 02 phone number on the new contract

should be fine actually....the number will transfer over to an account in a different name...but it would have to be your wife who calls to cancel

dewoofe · 17-09-2007, 22:12

I think you can keep your number, you have to ask for the I think PUK number, just watch them they get funny about give it to people, but them have to if your contract is at an end. thats what I was told from a friend who change network. hope it helps

prking · 18-09-2007, 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pres.F

OR port out to a pay as you go sim on another network...THEN port back to pay monthly on o2 again.....I've done it before

That's a very good point.

02-09-2007, 18:25	#26
Oops_Carole Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: ♥ North Of Watford ϖ Posts: 2,557	Quote: Originally Posted by Rugby League Got my tariff cost reduced and texts and minutes increased. (£20/month for 400 minutes and 1000 texts) On the contract thats in dispute I got a new Orbit xda and free sat nav software , 400 mins and 500 texts for £25 pm only 2 months ago. I sold the phone for £280 which almost paid for thec 12 month contract I thinks its best I cancel the contract and look around for a new 12 month contract , getting more mins , texts and a new phone , which I will sell on again to pay for another 12 month contract as I am happy with my current phone

03-09-2007, 11:12	#27
Pricey41 Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: N Yorks Posts: 243	It pays to have a moan, just got my bill cut from £30 to £15 for the same plan so pretty pleased with that.

03-09-2007, 11:23	#28
MsCongeniality Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 381	20p per minute is a lot. You may not get them included with other providers, but you can get them for less than 20p. I don't make 0870/0845 calls from my mobile because I get charged 12p per min (orange) never mind 20p.

17-09-2007, 01:30	#29
Captain W Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,977	Both myself and my partner are on o2 and never got this text message, letter or even an email about it! They get a good £80 a month out of us and we use our mobiles for 08 numbers. I think I'll just ask to cancel both contracts at the same time - I only came across this thread by accident - that was damn lucky. When is the cut off for cancelling?

17-09-2007, 09:35	#30
sla_steve Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Belfast, N.Ireland Posts: 1,457	Quote: Originally Posted by Captain W When is the cut off for cancelling? End of Sept i think

17-09-2007, 10:41	#31
coopermanyorks Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In Gods Own County Posts: 20,678	Quote: Originally Posted by Captain W Both myself and my partner are on o2 and never got this text message, letter or even an email about it! They get a good £80 a month out of us and we use our mobiles for 08 numbers. I think I'll just ask to cancel both contracts at the same time - I only came across this thread by accident - that was damn lucky. When is the cut off for cancelling? Quote: Originally Posted by sla_steve End of Sept i think Quote: Originally Posted by Muck Fine , *so to clarify you must exit the contract DURING the 5 week notice period up to the end of september not after it.* I still assert that you have no concrete excuse to so do unless you usually call these numbers so if you wanna exit an o2 contract make some calls to 0870 and 0845 numbers pronto to cover yo ass send an email to their customer care department . 28th September is the date mentioned

17-09-2007, 11:07	#32
sla_steve Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Belfast, N.Ireland Posts: 1,457	friend of mine sent them an email saying he would like to leave. has never called those numbers. They emailed him his PAC code straight away - no phone calls, no haggling, no retention offers.

17-09-2007, 11:33	#33
flagpole Inactive Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 43,524	Just some more information on this... Many of you will be aware of a similar dispute regarding vodafone changing their charges to unbundle MMS then data. they were entirely within their rights to do this. if your read your T&Cs it says something to the effect that they may increase their charges provided they give you a months notice. firther that this gives you the right to quit if this has a significant effect on you (with vod it was 10%) provided you tell them before this takes affect. the change is based on your previous usage, not your new usage. don't let them suggest otherwise. you will also got to keep your handset which is nice. 03 numbers will be part of your inclusive minutes, that's what they are for. they will be regulated with this in mind. Ofcom will not help you. you want their third party dispute resolution service Otelo i think.

17-09-2007, 14:22	#34
coopermanyorks Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In Gods Own County Posts: 20,678	Quote: Originally Posted by sla_steve friend of mine sent them an email saying he would like to leave. has never called those numbers. They emailed him his PAC code straight away - no phone calls, no haggling, no retention offers. I emailed them to cancel and also received a reply confirming it will be cancelled on the 28 , no retention offer and no pac code I just need to get my pac code Do I need a pac code to transfer my existimg number from 02 to a new 02 contract ?

17-09-2007, 16:03	#35
xjem Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 276	which email address did you send the cancelation email too?, as i emailed an address on the website and got told i had to phone in, where some snotty pillock kept asking me why i wanted to cancel as it didnt make any sense because i wouldn't be able to get the calls free anywhere else

17-09-2007, 16:06	#36
Pres.F Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,860	Quote: Originally Posted by xjem which email address did you send the cancelation email too?, as i emailed an address on the website and got told i had to phone in, where some snotty pillock kept asking me why i wanted to cancel as it didnt make any sense because i wouldn't be able to get the calls free anywhere else then you say "maybe not, but i did choose this contract because of those numbers and there are better talk plans around for me now that you are changing the rules"

17-09-2007, 16:08	#37
xjem Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 276	I did say that but because i only had a few numbers to 0845 etc, he was very snotty, Id rather do it via email and just get this cancelled.

17-09-2007, 16:52	#38
Pres.F Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,860	I have to say....I had been putting it off and putting it off but I finally called them to cancel half an hour ago (the resurrection of this thread reminded me) and they were very arsey with me... saying I have only used the numbers 12 times, and not at all in the last 3 months.... but I stood my ground and asked him to put me through to a supervisor as I felt my rights as a consumer were being ignored, he relented and passed me through to the next tier.....who are sending me a PAC code in the next few days. job done....but I did have to ask to speak to a supervisor.

17-09-2007, 17:48	#39
JSemple3 Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 7,677	Hm! Interesting to look at this thread. I have been looking for a way out of my O2 contract for quite a while (as I don't use my mobile and haven't for about 3 months or so) I'm still paying £20 a month for it and would save me money. Could this be my get out clause?

17-09-2007, 17:52	#40
prking Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Weston-super-Mare Posts: 9,167	Quote: Originally Posted by coopermanyorks Do I need a pac code to transfer my existimg number from 02 to a new 02 contract ? Depending on your existing contract with O2 it may not be possible to get another O2 contract until after a grace period of 6 months. You can't port in the way you want, unless you are changing service provider. What you need to do is phone O2 and ask to be transferred to a different tariff (an internal port) rather than cancel your contract.

17-09-2007, 18:05	#41
Pres.F Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,860	Quote: Originally Posted by JSemple3 Hm! Interesting to look at this thread. I have been looking for a way out of my O2 contract for quite a while (as I don't use my mobile and haven't for about 3 months or so) I'm still paying £20 a month for it and would save me money. Could this be my get out clause? certainly....the only reason I ditched mine is to get the mobile for free...I'd let it run otherwise...it's basically a free upgrade. you will have to make sure that you seem to have used these numbers...you could, of course start using them now....and then say that someone informed you after you used them that they would be chargeable. what I found worked for me was to complain that you agreed to the contract because you knew you would have to use 0870 numbers in the future.....and that you always try to get an alternative number from SAYNOTO0870.COM...but on some occasions you have to use them and you know you will in the future.....and when you do use them you will be on for over an hour so it is a considerable loss.... they will say that you haven't used the numbers in the past...then you need to say that you intended to use them in the future - they can't prove you weren't and they will have to take your word for it. you have to be persistant....at many points during my call i felt like just giving in and saying "oh forget it".....but thats why they pay the people on the other end of the line - to talk you out of it....but you'd be surprised what you can get if you stay on the phone and stand your ground

17-09-2007, 18:06	#42
Pres.F Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,860	Quote: Originally Posted by prking Depending on your existing contract with O2 it may not be possible to get another O2 contract until after a grace period of 6 months. You can't port in the way you want, unless you are changing service provider. What you need to do is phone O2 and ask to be transferred to a different tariff (an internal port) rather than cancel your contract. OR port out to a pay as you go sim on another network...THEN port back to pay monthly on o2 again.....I've done it before

17-09-2007, 18:11	#43
JSemple3 Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 7,677	Quote: Originally Posted by Pres.F certainly....the only reason I ditched mine is to get the mobile for free...I'd let it run otherwise...it's basically a free upgrade. you will have to make sure that you seem to have used these numbers...you could, of course start using them now....and then say that someone informed you after you used them that they would be chargeable. what I found worked for me was to complain that you agreed to the contract because you knew you would have to use 0870 numbers in the future.....and that you always try to get an alternative number from SAYNOTO0870.COM...but on some occasions you have to use them and you know you will in the future.....and when you do use them you will be on for over an hour so it is a considerable loss.... they will say that you haven't used the numbers in the past...then you need to say that you intended to use them in the future - they can't prove you weren't and they will have to take your word for it. you have to be persistant....at many points during my call i felt like just giving in and saying "oh forget it".....but thats why they pay the people on the other end of the line - to talk you out of it....but you'd be surprised what you can get if you stay on the phone and stand your ground I'll keep all of that in mind. I haven't really had too many problems when contacting O2 in the past about things and I've always paid my bills on time and what have you so I really don't see me having too many problems with this touch wood BUT if I do.........whistles I'll take notes and use some of these points if I have to. No point in me keeping a contract with something or somebody I don't use no more is there? Can always say there is every likelyhood that I would be using it a lot in the next couple of weeks (as pretty likely I will have to call a few 0845/0870 numbers before I go on a trip to sort out last minute things)

17-09-2007, 18:26	#44
Pres.F Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,860	Quote: Originally Posted by JSemple3 I'll keep all of that in mind. I haven't really had too many problems when contacting O2 in the past about things and I've always paid my bills on time and what have you so I really don't see me having too many problems with this touch wood BUT if I do.........whistles I'll take notes and use some of these points if I have to. No point in me keeping a contract with something or somebody I don't use no more is there? Can always say there is every likelyhood that I would be using it a lot in the next couple of weeks (as pretty likely I will have to call a few 0845/0870 numbers before I go on a trip to sort out last minute things) this is it...the main dispute I had with them was that they were quoting T&Cs which stated that the changes to the contract have to be deemed as cause of a significant disadvantage to me as a customer....but they have no idea what numbers i will use in the future - and i don't always use the same kind of numbers every month....so they will have to take my word for it. and they eventually did. p.s don't say "next couple of weeks" I don't think the changes will have taken effect by then....they are very picky

17-09-2007, 19:11	#45
JSemple3 Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 7,677	Quote: Originally Posted by Pres.F this is it...the main dispute I had with them was that they were quoting T&Cs which stated that the changes to the contract have to be deemed as cause of a significant disadvantage to me as a customer....but they have no idea what numbers i will use in the future - and i don't always use the same kind of numbers every month....so they will have to take my word for it. and they eventually did. p.s don't say "next couple of weeks" I don't think the changes will have taken effect by then....they are very picky Gotcha. I'll keep it all in mind. I've e-mailed them to start and I'll take it from there if they don't co-operate as to speak.

17-09-2007, 21:49	#46
coopermanyorks Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In Gods Own County Posts: 20,678	Quote: Originally Posted by prking Depending on your existing contract with O2 it may not be possible to get another O2 contract until after a grace period of 6 months. You can't port in the way you want, unless you are changing service provider. What you need to do is phone O2 and ask to be transferred to a different tariff (an internal port) rather than cancel your contract. I am wanting to cancel my existing contract , thats direct with 02 and in my wifes name and take out a brand new contract in my name via DAP and get a new phone , new contract , free ds lite and £185 refund over the 12 month contract in my name I was hoping to keep my existing 02 phone number on the new contract

DS Forums

02 will be Charging for local and national rate calls

17-09-2007, 22:05	#47
dewoofe Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Plant Earth Posts: 2	Hi new to this, was wondering if anyone has come across the Nokia N95, been thing of getting one but heard they have problems can anyone help

17-09-2007, 22:10	#48
Pres.F Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,860	Quote: Originally Posted by coopermanyorks I am wanting to cancel my existing contract , thats direct with 02 and in my wifes name and take out a brand new contract in my name via DAP and get a new phone , new contract , free ds lite and £185 refund over the 12 month contract in my name I was hoping to keep my existing 02 phone number on the new contract should be fine actually....the number will transfer over to an account in a different name...but it would have to be your wife who calls to cancel

17-09-2007, 22:12	#49
dewoofe Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Plant Earth Posts: 2	I think you can keep your number, you have to ask for the I think PUK number, just watch them they get funny about give it to people, but them have to if your contract is at an end. thats what I was told from a friend who change network. hope it helps

18-09-2007, 07:22	#50
prking Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Weston-super-Mare Posts: 9,167	Quote: Originally Posted by Pres.F OR port out to a pay as you go sim on another network...THEN port back to pay monthly on o2 again.....I've done it before That's a very good point.