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Old 17-09-2007, 00:27
Happ Hazzard
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How can I tell if a DVD is PAL or NTSC? My DVD players and TV will play either NTSC or PAL no problem, is there any software that will me which it is?
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Old 17-09-2007, 00:41
whatvideo
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How can I tell if a DVD is PAL or NTSC? My DVD players and TV will play either NTSC or PAL no problem, is there any software that will me which it is?
If a "tint" option appears on the tv screen then the disc will be NTSC.

If its an official dvd then if they are R1 or R3 they will be NTSC.

If its R2 then discs from Japan will be NTSC and there are a few UK discs where companies have simply coded the R1 NTSC disc for R2 aswell.

Warner have done it with a number of titles.

TBH if you are playing back on a decent 50Hz CRT then the PAL/NTSC difference is immediately noticeable.
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Old 17-09-2007, 00:51
Nigel Goodwin
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How can I tell if a DVD is PAL or NTSC? My DVD players and TV will play either NTSC or PAL no problem, is there any software that will me which it is?
Does it really matter?.

A lot depends on the particular DVD player, Sony ones tend to just play the disk in the format the region it's from uses. Cheaper players often have a menu setting that allows you to set it to always output either PAL, NTSC, or automatically select the coding.

One really annoying 'quirk' of Sony players is that they play non-region disks as NTSC - which if you're not using RGB, and you don't have a suitable TV, means they play in B&W.

Reason I know this, a lot of our test disks are region free ones

If you're watching via RGB it makes no difference at all, as neither PAL or NTSC are used.

BTW, hello from not far away!
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Old 17-09-2007, 18:20
bobcar
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If a "tint" option appears on the tv screen then the disc will be NTSC.
Why would you get a tint option? Most people would be playing it via RGB.
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Old 17-09-2007, 21:15
whatvideo
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Why would you get a tint option? Most people would be playing it via RGB.
Whether you are watching in RGB is irrelevant.

Most tv's will display a TINT option if displaying NTSC.

At least the Toshiba and Panasonic sets I've had over the last 20 years aswell as friends Philips sets do
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Old 17-09-2007, 21:19
whatvideo
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Does it really matter?.

A lot depends on the particular DVD player, Sony ones tend to just play the disk in the format the region it's from uses. Cheaper players often have a menu setting that allows you to set it to always output either PAL, NTSC, or automatically select the coding.

One really annoying 'quirk' of Sony players is that they play non-region disks as NTSC - which if you're not using RGB, and you don't have a suitable TV, means they play in B&W.

Reason I know this, a lot of our test disks are region free ones

If you're watching via RGB it makes no difference at all, as neither PAL or NTSC are used.

The playback of discs in PAL or NTSC has zilch to do with region coding.

You will most likely find that the region free discs are NTSC anyway .

And even if using RGB its still easy to see the difference between PAL and NTSC.

The extra 100 lines is immediately noticeable for a start.

All RGB does it usually ensure the playback of NTSC is colour,after all PAL and NTSC are actually only terms to differentiate colour frequencies,so while RGB removes that difference the NTSC (or should we say 525/30) picture still has 100 lines less
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Old 17-09-2007, 22:34
whatvideo
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Nigel,your idea about Sony players is strange.

As R2 covers PAL countries aswell as NTSC countries (Japan) dont you think the player would get confused?
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Old 17-09-2007, 22:35
Nigel Goodwin
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And even if using RGB its still easy to see the difference between PAL and NTSC.

The extra 100 lines is immediately noticeable for a start.
That's nothing to do with NTSC or PAL, that's the resolution of the picture - you're talking about 525 line and 625 line - which is a different thing altogether. You can get 625 line NTSC broadcasts, the colour system used is really irrelevant.
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Old 17-09-2007, 22:38
whatvideo
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That's nothing to do with NTSC or PAL, that's the resolution of the picture - you're talking about 525 line and 625 line - which is a different thing altogether. You can get 625 line NTSC broadcasts, the colour system used is really irrelevant.
You said it was irrelevant if using RGB.

I merely pointed out that it wasn't.

If a disc is R1 then its clear to see the NTSC (or 525) picture difference even in RGB.

While some obscure countries have 625 NTSC and IIRC some have 525 PAL aswell,but as nobody has ever seen dvd's in either of those formats you are being a tad pedantic
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Old 17-09-2007, 22:40
Nigel Goodwin
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You said it was irrelevant if using RGB.
NTSC or PAL is irrelevant with RGB, which is what the thread is about - 525 or 625 is a completely different matter.
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Old 17-09-2007, 22:43
whatvideo
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NTSC or PAL is irrelevant with RGB, which is what the thread is about - 525 or 625 is a completely different matter.
While NTSC and PAL technically refer to the colour frequencies ,the terms are universally accepted by the dvd companies ,hardware manufacturers and the public as referring to 525 (NTSC) and 625 (PAL).

You only have to look on the back of R1 dvd's to see NTSC named.

I already said the colour format was irrelevant as RGB enabled colour playback from all discs ,but if the tv is not 60Hz compatible you wont get a decent picture even in RGB.
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Old 17-09-2007, 22:54
Nigel Goodwin
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I already said the colour format was irrelevant as RGB enabled colour playback from all discs ,but if the tv is not 60Hz compatible you wont get a decent picture even in RGB.
It would be rare to find a TV that has a SCART socket that won't accept 525 lines / 60Hz frame via RGB. Not for any particular specification reasons, but simply because the chipset manufacturers found it easier (and more cost effective) to make chips that do both, rather than making two seperate chips.
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Old 17-09-2007, 22:57
whatvideo
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It would be rare to find a TV that has a SCART socket that won't accept 525 lines / 60Hz frame via RGB. Not for any particular specification reasons, but simply because the chipset manufacturers found it easier (and more cost effective) to make chips that do both, rather than making two seperate chips.
In this day and age yes I agree but some older tv's can have problems.

Another point I wanted to raise was your assertion that Sony players would read the region code of a given disc then playback in an appropriate format.

I would say thats highly unlikely.
As I posted above how would it decide on a R2 disc?

I think you are confusing things with the fact that most region free discs are NTSC
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Old 18-09-2007, 09:57
Nigel Goodwin
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In this day and age yes I agree but some older tv's can have problems.

Another point I wanted to raise was your assertion that Sony players would read the region code of a given disc then playback in an appropriate format.
You put a region free disk in a Sony and it plays back in NTSC, resulting in a B&W picture on a non-NTSC TV, unless you're using RGB. There's no way to alter this on a Sony!.

Put the same disk in a cheaper make, and you have an option to play it as either NTSC or PAL, which makes FAR more sense. The colour system isn't recorded on the disk, it's created in the playback circuitry, so why should a Sony not give you the option?.
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Old 18-09-2007, 21:17
whatvideo
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You put a region free disk in a Sony and it plays back in NTSC, resulting in a B&W picture on a non-NTSC TV, unless you're using RGB. There's no way to alter this on a Sony!.

Put the same disk in a cheaper make, and you have an option to play it as either NTSC or PAL, which makes FAR more sense. The colour system isn't recorded on the disk, it's created in the playback circuitry, so why should a Sony not give you the option?.
The reason the disc plays in B&W is because its NTSC

Many players dont have the option to alter the playback format.

Most that do will list NTSC/PAL /AUTO.

With those settings :

NTSC-all discs will be output as NTSC

PAL-NTSC discs are converted into PAL 60 or PAL 50 depending on the player.

Auto-NTSC will play as pure NTSC and PAL as PAL.

Some players including Toshiba dont give you the option and the disc will be played in its native format.

Of course the colour information is encoded on the disc-thats why any R1 disc will play as NTSC unless the player itself is altered via the menus.

As I said ,check the back of most discs ,R1 and R2 and they will say PAL or NTSC.

Its ridiculous to state that region free discs will play as NTSC.

What about the UK R0 discs in PAL ,including most music dvd's?

Live Aid for example.
I had the US version incorrectly sent from CDWOW which played in NTSC.
They replaced it for the UK version that played in PAL.

In both cases the set was R0.

What about the wide selection of US Warner dvd's with multiple encoding?

Many of their tv shows and cartoons are coded for R1,R2 ,R4 and R5.
Some are coded for all 4 of those regions ,some are coded for just 3.

If Sony machines did as you say they would go into meltdown on those.

As I said ,most region free discs are NTSC anyway.

What specific titles do you refer to?

If you insist that Sony players perform this pointless "service" then kindly link to a manual download that states it.

You wont be able to because its a ridiculous thing to suggest.

I can just see everyone with a Sony player buying their region free discs and moaning about them coming out in B&W.
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Old 18-09-2007, 21:41
Nigel Goodwin
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The reason the disc plays in B&W is because its NTSC

Many players dont have the option to alter the playback format.

Most that do will list NTSC/PAL /AUTO.
As I said!.


With those settings :

NTSC-all discs will be output as NTSC

PAL-NTSC discs are converted into PAL 60 or PAL 50 depending on the player.
Not 'converted' as it's not recorded as NTSC, or any other colour system.


Auto-NTSC will play as pure NTSC and PAL as PAL.
Again, as I said.


Some players including Toshiba dont give you the option and the disc will be played in its native format.

Of course the colour information is encoded on the disc-thats why any R1 disc will play as NTSC unless the player itself is altered via the menus.
No, the data on the disk isn't in any colour system, it's digital, there may be some data on the disk that tells the player what colour system to encode it in for composite output, but it's not recoded in any colour system the player adds the colour encoding, either NTSC or PAL (and presumably SECAM in France?).


As I said ,check the back of most discs ,R1 and R2 and they will say PAL or NTSC.

Its ridiculous to state that region free discs will play as NTSC.

What about the UK R0 discs in PAL ,including most music dvd's?

Live Aid for example.
I had the US version incorrectly sent from CDWOW which played in NTSC.
They replaced it for the UK version that played in PAL.

In both cases the set was R0.

What about the wide selection of US Warner dvd's with multiple encoding?

Many of their tv shows and cartoons are coded for R1,R2 ,R4 and R5.
Some are coded for all 4 of those regions ,some are coded for just 3.

If Sony machines did as you say they would go into meltdown on those.

As I said ,most region free discs are NTSC anyway.

What specific titles do you refer to?
All those I've tried over the years, including the ones customers bring in to complain!


If you insist that Sony players perform this pointless "service" then kindly link to a manual download that states it.

You wont be able to because its a ridiculous thing to suggest.
Of course it doesn't tell you in the manual, you find it out when you put a disk in and you're not using RGB, and your TV won't do NTSC - although most modernish sets do.


I can just see everyone with a Sony player buying their region free discs and moaning about them coming out in B&W.
Region free disks (that play in NTSC) are fairly rare, the vast majority of disks in the UK are region 2, and the number of sets that won't cope is small as well.

I'm 'fortunate' in that I have a TV mounted on the wall for test purposes, with a three way SCART switch feeding it. The TV is an old Sony portable, it doesn't do NTSC, and it doesn't do RGB so this allows me to test for people, and show them the problem and how to cure it!.

You even admitted above that Toshiba players do the same thing!.
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Old 18-09-2007, 22:01
whatvideo
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As I said!.



Not 'converted' as it's not recorded as NTSC, or any other colour system.



Again, as I said.



No, the data on the disk isn't in any colour system, it's digital, there may be some data on the disk that tells the player what colour system to encode it in for composite output, but it's not recoded in any colour system the player adds the colour encoding, either NTSC or PAL (and presumably SECAM in France?).



All those I've tried over the years, including the ones customers bring in to complain!



Of course it doesn't tell you in the manual, you find it out when you put a disk in and you're not using RGB, and your TV won't do NTSC - although most modernish sets do.



Region free disks (that play in NTSC) are fairly rare, the vast majority of disks in the UK are region 2, and the number of sets that won't cope is small as well.

I'm 'fortunate' in that I have a TV mounted on the wall for test purposes, with a three way SCART switch feeding it. The TV is an old Sony portable, it doesn't do NTSC, and it doesn't do RGB so this allows me to test for people, and show them the problem and how to cure it!.

You even admitted above that Toshiba players do the same thing!.
From your other posts it appears you are in retail and are informed about certain aspects of home cinema but its clear from other threads ,including this one that you are woefully uninformed on some things.

Firstly, we all know that disc info is not recorded in NTSC/PAL like it is on tape,but you should be aware that the info for how the data is output IS on the disc.

Every single disc in the world has the data included that tells the player what format the disc is in.

I said nothing of the kind about Toshiba.
I said Toshiba players dont give you the option to convert NTSC into PAL or vice versa.

Players with multiple options will convert to enable colour playback where there are compatibility problems.

Toshiba have no conversion anywhere.
Or at least the 2 I owned and the one a friend currently has.

It has 2 options: PAL and AUTO.

However if you play an NTSC disc when the player is set to PAL the player rejects it completely.

If you set it to AUTO then the NTSC will output as NTSC 3.58 (pure NTSC).

Other players with multiple options will output NTSC as either NTSC 3.58 (pure) or NTSC 4.43 (PAL 60) and some ,mostly low budget players will fully convert into PAL 50.

If the dvd player adds the colour encoding you may want to explain why US players from major brands do not play PAL discs at all ,even if they are R0.
They spin but there's no picture.

Well your experience of R0 discs in NTSC may be small but you obviously dont collect US dvd's.

Many labels of non mainsteam material issue discs as R0.

I have well over 150 of them from Anchor Bay,Blue Underground and others.

I also have a great many UK discs that are R0.
And as expected they are UK discs and play in PAL.

If your theory were correct you still have not explained how the player would cope with a multi coded disc.

When MVC were around I bought a fair few R0 NTSC discs from them.

But I will assume that you mean there are very few R0 NTSC discs in the UK.
Of course that is right.
But if you give me the titles I can possibly let you know whether your R0 discs are in NTSC.

Virtually all music titles are R0 and there are also some issued in the UK that are NTSC ,presumably down to laziness on the part of the distributor.(One season of Sex and The City was NTSC in the UK)

I've been collecting NTSC material since the days of the first Panasonic NTSC VCR (L50 IIRC) in 1990,and since then have been very involved in the world of NTSC via Laserdisc until early 1998 when I got a US R1 only dvd player (A Toshiba model)

I also have several thousand dvd's of all regions from all over the world so I do have some experience in the matter including about a dozen different players and recorders over the years .

All I am saying is that there is no way in the world that a dvd player of any brand would select NTSC or PAL based on the region code (or lack of it) ,which is what you are suggesting.

If you care to look through US dvd catalogues of non mainstream material ,you will find that in the world of music,really old movies and tv shows,documentaries and similar stuff that the discs that are R0 far outweigh those coded for R1.


Your other comment regarding conversion:
If a disc is coded to playback in NTSC and you want a PAL 60 or PAL 50 output from it perhaps you have another word to describe what happens
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Old 18-09-2007, 22:32
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And if there was any kind of playback problem ,like no NTSC or options for NTSC or even the unlikely "R0 discs will playback in NTSC" it would obviously be in the manual
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Old 18-09-2007, 22:39
Nigel Goodwin
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Your other comment regarding conversion:
If a disc is coded to playback in NTSC and you want a PAL 60 or PAL 50 output from it perhaps you have another word to describe what happens
Simply played back in PAL, as opposed to simply played back in NTSC - as you now admit you understand (which you hadn't previously), the data isn't stored on the disk as either colour system. So playing back an 'NTSC' disk in PAL, isn't 'converting' it from NTSC to PAL, it's merely encoding it in PAL, instead of encoding it in NTSC.

You obviously see far more 'obscure' and non-UK disks than I do. However, one example of the 'Sony problem' occurred with a small production run UK produced and mastered disk. The DVD was region free, marked PAL, a proper stamped disk (not a DVR), and the customer had bought it because he was in it!. It played in B&W on his new Sony DVD, whereas it was fine on his old (now defunct) cheap player - the answer (fairly obviously) was simply to swap the SCART lead to the other socket on his TV, which did RGB, whereas the one he was using didn't.
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Old 18-09-2007, 22:49
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Simply played back in PAL, as opposed to simply played back in NTSC - as you now admit you understand (which you hadn't previously), the data isn't stored on the disk as either colour system. So playing back an 'NTSC' disk in PAL, isn't 'converting' it from NTSC to PAL, it's merely encoding it in PAL, instead of encoding it in NTSC.

You obviously see far more 'obscure' and non-UK disks than I do. However, one example of the 'Sony problem' occurred with a small production run UK produced and mastered disk. The DVD was region free, marked PAL, a proper stamped disk (not a DVR), and the customer had bought it because he was in it!. It played in B&W on his new Sony DVD, whereas it was fine on his old (now defunct) cheap player - the answer (fairly obviously) was simply to swap the SCART lead to the other socket on his TV, which did RGB, whereas the one he was using didn't.
We're nearly there.

The info is on the dvd to tell the player whether the playback should be PAL or NTSC.

And there is nothing anyone can do to change that.
Its not possible to get a disc authored and mastered for NTSC playback to simply play in PAL without displaying all the faults inherent in "converting" 525/60 material to 625/50.

So if an NTSC dvd is played in NTSC the results are excellent.
But if you alter the output to either PAL 60 or even worse PAL 50 then you will get the defects associated with the change of format like juddering and jerky movement.

If the disc is designed for 525 playback the extra 100 lines dont come from nowhere .

Another thread reckoned PAL 60 was better because you had the PAL colour but the picture remained in 525,but I prefer NTSC as it should be and then it looks rock solid
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Old 19-09-2007, 01:19
bobcar
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We're nearly there.

The info is on the dvd to tell the player whether the playback should be PAL or NTSC.

And there is nothing anyone can do to change that.
Its not possible to get a disc authored and mastered for NTSC playback to simply play in PAL without displaying all the faults inherent in "converting" 525/60 material to 625/50.

So if an NTSC dvd is played in NTSC the results are excellent.
But if you alter the output to either PAL 60 or even worse PAL 50 then you will get the defects associated with the change of format like juddering and jerky movement.

If the disc is designed for 525 playback the extra 100 lines dont come from nowhere .

Another thread reckoned PAL 60 was better because you had the PAL colour but the picture remained in 525,but I prefer NTSC as it should be and then it looks rock solid
You seem to be very confused about what PAL and NTSC are.

PAL is not 625/50 though it usually is that, NTSC does specify the frame rate and number of lines as 525/60.

PAL and NTSC have different colour modulation schemes with PAL being superior to NTSC because it does not suffer from the phase problems that NTSC (Never The Same Colour) does.

The DVD does not contain any colour modulation information, this is added by the DVD player. In the case of 525/60 (more accurately 480 lines) the DVD player can output a composite signal using either PAL or NTSC, in the case of PAL this is often called PAL60.

When PAL60 is used there is no jerkiness and there are no extra lines added compared to NTSC, the only difference is the colour modulation is the PAL method of alternating phase very line. You are clearly under the misunderstanding that PAL60 converts the signal to 625 lines, it does not.

My Panny DVDR lets me select whether I wish to display 525/60 composite outputs as NTSC or PAL though I only use RGB or HDMI so it doesn't matter anyway. From what Nigel was saying Sony's default region free to NTSC which does not seem optimal behaviour, it should be selectable as some UK TVs will handle PAL60 but not NTSC. It looks like Nigel is saying that they will also use the NTSC modulation with 625/50 for non region 2 discs.
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Old 19-09-2007, 10:38
Nigel Goodwin
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We're nearly there.

The info is on the dvd to tell the player whether the playback should be PAL or NTSC.

And there is nothing anyone can do to change that.
Its not possible to get a disc authored and mastered for NTSC playback to simply play in PAL without displaying all the faults inherent in "converting" 525/60 material to 625/50.

So if an NTSC dvd is played in NTSC the results are excellent.
But if you alter the output to either PAL 60 or even worse PAL 50 then you will get the defects associated with the change of format like juddering and jerky movement.

If the disc is designed for 525 playback the extra 100 lines dont come from nowhere .
As suggested by Bobcar, you're confused about what NTSC and PAL are, it's nothing to do with line or frame rate.


Another thread reckoned PAL 60 was better because you had the PAL colour but the picture remained in 525,but I prefer NTSC as it should be and then it looks rock solid
It looks rock solid in PAL as well, and doesn't have the extra problems associated with NTSC.

But in any case, watch it via RGB to be FAR better than either.
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Old 19-09-2007, 21:21
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You seem to be very confused about what PAL and NTSC are.

PAL is not 625/50 though it usually is that, NTSC does specify the frame rate and number of lines as 525/60.

PAL and NTSC have different colour modulation schemes with PAL being superior to NTSC because it does not suffer from the phase problems that NTSC (Never The Same Colour) does.

The DVD does not contain any colour modulation information, this is added by the DVD player. In the case of 525/60 (more accurately 480 lines) the DVD player can output a composite signal using either PAL or NTSC, in the case of PAL this is often called PAL60.

When PAL60 is used there is no jerkiness and there are no extra lines added compared to NTSC, the only difference is the colour modulation is the PAL method of alternating phase very line. You are clearly under the misunderstanding that PAL60 converts the signal to 625 lines, it does not.

My Panny DVDR lets me select whether I wish to display 525/60 composite outputs as NTSC or PAL though I only use RGB or HDMI so it doesn't matter anyway. From what Nigel was saying Sony's default region free to NTSC which does not seem optimal behaviour, it should be selectable as some UK TVs will handle PAL60 but not NTSC. It looks like Nigel is saying that they will also use the NTSC modulation with 625/50 for non region 2 discs.
I am well aware of the difference between PAL and NTSC.

Neither refers to frame rate or lines.

Some countries (not many) use PAL in a 525 system.

As I've been using PAL 60 (NTSC 4.43) since 1990 I am also aware that it is NOT 625 lines.

The last Panny recorder I had (and I know subsequent ones were the same at least for a while) in that they were supplied with NTSC output preset to PAL 60.

If you wanted to view NTSC dvd's in proper NTSC you had to alter the TV System Setting.

And while it was changed you were not able to record or view in PAL and had to change it back in the system set up again.

As I said ,the idea that any dvd player would output in NTSC purely on the basis of it being region free is nonsense.

Despite Nigel's assertions there are countless region 0 NTSC discs ,even in the UK and I would bet that the ones he was having trouble with were NTSC
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Old 19-09-2007, 21:23
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As suggested by Bobcar, you're confused about what NTSC and PAL are, it's nothing to do with line or frame rate.



It looks rock solid in PAL as well, and doesn't have the extra problems associated with NTSC.

But in any case, watch it via RGB to be FAR better than either.

I've already said that I am well aware that NTSC and PAL refer only to the colour modulation,but in general the terms are accepted universally as 625/50 and 525/60.

Whether you watch in NTSC or RGB its still clear to see the 100 lines less in the picture
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Old 19-09-2007, 22:29
bobcar
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I am well aware of the difference between PAL and NTSC.
Then why did you say?
Its not possible to get a disc authored and mastered for NTSC playback to simply play in PAL without displaying all the faults inherent in "converting" 525/60 material to 625/50.
This seems to indicate that you do not know the difference, as do other comments you made. You have consistently until this latest post talked about converting 525/60 to 625/50 so why the change now?

Neither refers to frame rate or lines.
Actually the NTSC spec does state the frame rate and lines as well as the modulation system, PAL just specifies the modulation system. However the PAL/NTSC designation on DVDs is still not correct because DVDs only contain digital information so they are neither PAL nor NTSC (it indicates the line and frame rate of NTSC but of course PAL does not specify these).


The last Panny recorder I had (and I know subsequent ones were the same at least for a while) in that they were supplied with NTSC output preset to PAL 60.

If you wanted to view NTSC dvd's in proper NTSC you had to alter the TV System Setting.
That's what I said, it is selectable.

As I said ,the idea that any dvd player would output in NTSC purely on the basis of it being region free is nonsense.

Despite Nigel's assertions there are countless region 0 NTSC discs ,even in the UK and I would bet that the ones he was having trouble with were NTSC
Does it matter if they were NTSC (525 to be precise) or not? It should still be selectable in the DVD player to play in PAL.
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