I agree that we need a real ballroom judge - or two - on the show. Even Len is not such an important figure in the world of ballroom as he seems - in over 40 years of dancing, following competitions and occasionally competing myself I had never heard of him before this show started! I think he runs a very ordinary dance school somewhere, putting on medal classes for beginners. Still, it is an entertainment show, and he is certainly that. Likewise I think Bruno, Craig and Arlene should be kept on to give us all a laugh. I think Arlene should star herself in a West End show - the one I think would suit her best is "Kiss Me Kate", a.k.a.
Shakespeare's " The Taming of the Shrew"!

As to who should be brought onto the show, all the real competition teachers and judges advertise in Dance News. My choice for the modern would be Marcus Hilton MBE. He and his wife Karen were the World Professional Modern Champions for a record nine years. In the opinion of most dancers, myself included, the Hiltons were the the best ballroom dancers ever, and also won world championships in latin, ten-dance, and various kinds of show dancing.

For the latin, Sammy Stopford was a great champion and also a bit of a comedian and a very entertaining character.

For what it's worth, I think we should keep the current judges but have one more so that you do away with Len having the casting vote if there is a 2 way tie in the dance off

After hearing Karen's first report on the Saturday show for BBC Breakfast on Monday, I thought she gave a balanced view with some interesting points like Stephanie only made 5% errors while Kate made 50%, the boys group dance was awful like they had taken the week off etc., no not needing to be nasty/personal but still making her point

A guest judge each week would work, or someone else full time, while I like La Rhumba's suggestion of Karen (who is a professional judge) I would not want it to stop her from competiting in the next series if she is asked/want's to do it

Len does own/run a dance school in Dartford Kent, and it is true that he does run classes for medallist beginners. However he also teaches competitors (medallists and open) of all ranks and standards, plus a great number of professional couples who go to him, especially for their demonstration and showdance routines. He is also a well-known/respected judge on the circuit of the more prestigious competitions (Blackpool Open etc.)

Ooh, I like this idea. Marcus Hilton is THE ambassador for ballroom dancing and Sammy would be great fun although I can't see it as very likely as:
a) Strictly seems completely divorced from the real world of ballroom dancing...when have we ever been given an insight into the competitive environment. Not even on ITT!
b) It would usurp the 'King Len' thing that the programme makers have built up (largely due to the fact that the others don't know what they should be looking for in terms of technique)
c) The Sep-Dec contract would be too restrictive...its probably when they are training the top class pros for the International, Nationals and World Pro comps
d) They probably couldn't afford them!

Sammy would be great, but would probably be another Craig/Arlene as he doesn't suffer fools gladly, nor is he afraid to speak his mind --- very bluntly.

Marcus Hilton? Another lovely guy, but too serious for Strictly.

How about Mark Lunn. He has personality and a wicked sense of humour, and not shy behind a microphone.

Don't think any change of judge will happen for a while though, as - to my knowledge - all the judges are on a 5 year contract. Although this is series 5, the first 2 series were both in the same year, so they will probably be there for at least one more season.

Serious is the last word I'd use to describe Marcus. Hilarious, genuis, cheeky, perhaps. The guy is an absolute legend, and has THE funniest personality!

I doubt they'd let Sammy do it as he is so closely connected with Darren and Lilia that other competitors may think it to be a bit of a bias.

How is he connected to Darren and Lilia?

I'm assuming he coached them when they competed?

Well, Ballroom Exhibition being half ballroom and half staqe dancing, it means that in the four judges on the show we have three-and-a-half stage dancers. Something not quite right there! Actually this is typical of the way ballroom dancing is presented on television - it's almost always under the control of stage dancers. The only exceptions to this rule that I remember were the broadcasts from the UK Championships in Bournemouth in the 1990s (of which I still have some recordings), and going very far back in history, Victor Silvester's Television Dancing Club (don't laugh!).

I remember watching some Ballroom Exhibition at Blackpool. The competitors would come out one couple at a time, dressed in proper modern competition style, and do lifts, dance apart, etc. - very like the American Smooth that we have today. It was dropped from the proceedings for many years but maybe it's back now.

Its not a dancing competition - its a prime time BBC entertainment programme trying to do the best it can to produce a rational result. The judges job is to be entertaining and to try and get a sensible order with a marking scale for the show rather than a professional score. Given the voters tend to ignore the judges anyway and vote on story or anything else they think of, it can never be much more precise. As the dancers are not going to stand up to great scrutiny anyway the last thing you want is someone pointing out that both your finalists are not very good at what they are dancing, as last year.. The more professional the judge the more they are likely to tell us whats wrong.

The entertainment aspect requires entertaining judges. If you have 4 who work its not likely anyone will change them. Disagreements look odd but they work dramatically and are implicit in the marking scale and the programme's concept - if you don't use a professional scale you have to mark more on impressions and use the scale you have.. The show sometimes requires some tinkering by the judges to counteract the randomness of the public vote. it also requires some judgement to be made on who can develop and do well across other dances when you decide who goes - which explains last week's judges vote. That adds to the subjectivity of the marking scale and the problem that any score given could be very nearly the mark either side of it. The biggest variable remains the public vote - as we saw with Kate staying. You still can't make a good choice from two bad alternatives if thats what the public give you. Adding judges doesn't make any difference to any of that..Whatever the judges decide some people just won't like it and that will be the case however many judges you have or whoever they are.

Oh dear. I don't know why I do it every year, but reading your posts for my annual dose of patronizing hyperbole and confusing tosh seems to be a habit!

Re this sentence:

Really? That's where you're seriously mistaken and have a very poor view of
a) what Ballroom & Latin Dancing actually is
b) the nature of the show
c) the actual opinions of the real Ballroom experts - try listening on the red button, you might learn something
d) you still haven't grasped that it's not entertainment to have Arlene shrieking she just wants sex, or Bruno going gaga over yet another female diva who has danced poorly, yet still gives a 9 to "keep her in the competition". How is that entertainment? The Judges are there to assess the Dancing, the viewers to decide who they like
e) that the GBP will vote Kate back in because a hobbling woman in pain does not deserve a 2 or to be castigated in such an humiliating way and reduced to tears! That's why! Not for any perverse reason, as you always claim. It was the same in series 1 - the viewers seemed to be waiting to hear the Judges say "good effort" instead of "that was dreadful" even if it may've been. There's a thing called treating people fairly and with a bit of respect, and not leaving them crushed on national TV when they are attempting something completely new to most of them that is quite difficult.

I suspect you haven't read beyond the OP's post anyway, the debate has developed since then, but one thing is for sure, these automaton posts of yours will never change. I'd best just ignore them in future!

ok I stand corrected about Marcus!!!

What are these books on ballroom dancing that Craig is supposed to have written? This I have to see!

Mark Lunn? Is he still going? I have recordings of him as Karen's amateur partner, and also of his previous partner Julie Fryer.

Bang on, Darren noted Sammy as being one of his main coaches.

There is a book called Ballroom Dancing by Craig Revel Horwood. A bit of a laugh really when you know how little he knows about the subject. Was obviously written for him by someone else.

He knows so little about it that his weekly training reviews are done by someone else and passed to him for him to present. Last series it was Andrew Cuerdon who did it, this year it is a professional who is a 10 dancer and a respected judge.

This is Craig's book; Amazon randomly recommended it to me the other day but I don't see myself ever investing in it given the reviews.

Agree LR . those posts read like a press handout from the BBC, they are boring to say the least and I cant be bothered to plough through them. They are indeed patronising and complete rubbish.

I doubt he's ever even danced Ballroom! What a con! Ghost writing goes on all the time in publishing, but in this case IMO it's unnacceptable.


I'd much rather have seen Andrew Cuerdon last year - I was wondering what he was doing atm - and whomever is really doing it this year. We see enough of CRH every week on the main show and every Monday on ITT anyway! :yawn: