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Freeview Problems
niall campbell
07-11-2007
http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051316

Carrying on from another thread in the Home Entertainment Equipment on wether we should hang off buying freeview box or wait I found this interesting.

This will annoy thousands of people as DVB-T will now be replaced with DVB-T2

SD picture qualities will be lower even though transmitors will be pumping out more power

Please no mention of scaremongering, a decent conversation and do we feel let down ?

report here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/assets...v/sagentia.pdf
ianflo
07-11-2007
Originally Posted by niall campbell:
“http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051316

Carrying on from another thread in the Home Entertainment Equipment on wether we should hang off buying freeview box or wait I found this interesting.

This will annoy thousands of people as DVB-T will now be replaced with DVB-T2

SD picture qualities will be lower even though transmitors will be pumping out more power

Please no mention of scaremongering, a decent conversation and do we feel let down ?

report here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/assets...v/sagentia.pdf”

So what you're saying is don't buy lcd tv until 2017? I'll have gone through 5 by then anyway.

Seriously though if the nation is to go HD then the easiest way is for all broadcasters to buy slots on satellite. We all get satellite dishes and decoder boxes, some freesat and others those that want to stick to sky.

This allows us to do away with transmitters and the vagaries of geology interfering with signals. Everyone would get the signal no matter where they were and we all have the same kit. When time comes to change it can be planned and everyone knows where they are.

To change to HD straight after switching to digital SD will cause an uproar, and if you reduce signal strength (to get minimal HD services) it will result in crappy reception and people will want to go back to analogue and not want any further changes.

I can only presume ofcom want to be disbanded and hated thoughout the country
Lizzybif
07-11-2007
So is this anything to worry about or can I forget about it until 2017?

I have just splashed out on an HD Ready LCD TV which I will be using with a Freeview PVR and will not be at all happy if my SD picture quality is going to be worse?!!!
niall campbell
07-11-2007
no you will be ok with your telly just your freeview pvr will be obselete
ianflo
07-11-2007
Originally Posted by Lizzybif:
“So is this anything to worry about or can I forget about it until 2017?

I have just splashed out on an HD Ready LCD TV which I will be using with a Freeview PVR and will not be at all happy if my SD picture quality is going to be worse?!!!”

How far are you from transmitter? And what type of PVR?

If you are near transmitter and have good tuner (eg Humax) then you'll be ok (apart from not being able to decode HD signal).

If you are a long way off and have duff tuner then email ofcom and let them know of your displeasure.
Lizzybif
07-11-2007
Originally Posted by ianflo:
“How far are you from transmitter? And what type of PVR?

If you are near transmitter and have good tuner (eg Humax) then you'll be ok (apart from not being able to decode HD signal).

If you are a long way off and have duff tuner then email ofcom and let them know of your displeasure.”

Not too far from transmitter (Rumster) but the original signal is sent by the Durris transmitter which a long way away. How far is a 'long way off'?
I can actually see the Rumster transmitter from my house.It is about 30 miles away I think.

I have a Humax 9200 PVR.
Lizzybif
07-11-2007
Originally Posted by niall campbell:
“no you will be ok with your telly just your freeview pvr will be obselete”

Sorry Niall didn't see your post !

Why will be my PVR be obsolete?
ianflo
07-11-2007
Originally Posted by niall campbell:
“no you will be ok with your telly just your freeview pvr will be obselete”

Niall what type of HD signal is broadcast? I have seen stuff on different types of HD at different resolutions(p/i , 1080 , and 700) will all the types of HD tv be able to display the signal (through decoder) or will some not work with this digital mk2?

As you can tell I do not have hd and don't know much about it.
ianflo
07-11-2007
Originally Posted by Lizzybif:
“Not too far from transmitter (Rumster) but the original signal is sent by the Durris transmitter which a long way away. How far is a 'long way off'?
I can actually see the Rumster transmitter from my house.It is about 30 miles away I think.

I have a Humax 9200 PVR.”

It sounds like you're on a relay transmitter which is the 8.5% which MAY struggle with reception (emphasis on may).

The Humax will cope better than most boxes with SD reception but (as far as I understand) will not be able to decode HD signals and DVBt2 (as standard not set). Anyone in HD trial area (London) with Humax will be able to tell you if it can decode HD (but I'm fairly sure it can't).

I'm sure Niall will clarify that for you.
Lizzybif
07-11-2007
Originally Posted by ianflo:
“It sounds like you're on a relay transmitter which is the 8.5% which MAY struggle with reception (emphasis on may).

The Humax will cope better than most boxes with SD reception but (as far as I understand) will not be able to decode HD signals and DVBt2 (as standard not set). Anyone in HD trial area (London) with Humax will be able to tell you if it can decode HD (but I'm fairly sure it can't).

I'm sure Niall will clarify that for you.”

Thanks Ian! Yes it is a 'repeater' transmitter. Sorry to be thick but not sure what you mean by 'decode HD signals'?
I am quite happy to stay with SD as long as there is no reduction in quality.

How long can I bury my head in the sand for?

I take it that the only solution is to change to cable?
Lizzybif
07-11-2007
Originally Posted by ianflo:
“If you are a long way off and have duff tuner then email ofcom and let them know of your displeasure.”

Ian do you know what Ofcom's email address is I can't find it on their website?
aerialview
08-11-2007
Lets not bombard ofcom with ideas that everyone could simply take a satellite dish feed and be fine because this is just not the case.

There are still people who cannot receive satellite on 28e the main reason being obstructions or geographic positioning of the home. So its not as straight forward as it seems. People will (for a good few years) need aerial installations to watch TV.

Also I doubt the companies that won the bidding rights to the broadcasting spectrum will be prepared to just switch to free-to-air and forget all about the money they spent on getting their platform.

Why would we bin off such simple way to view TV? Aerial to TV tuner job done. LNB to receiver tuner via decoder to mains to TV its totally unnessesary and creates more processes which in turn will create more problems. And who would the public look to when they have problems?
More and more people would turn to the massive over priced firm 'sky', Rupert would be rubbing his dirty little hands together and thats something I never want to see happen.
niall campbell
08-11-2007
Originally Posted by ianflo:
“Niall what type of HD signal is broadcast? I have seen stuff on different types of HD at different resolutions(p/i , 1080 , and 700) will all the types of HD tv be able to display the signal (through decoder) or will some not work with this digital mk2?

As you can tell I do not have hd and don't know much about it.”

720 and 1080 i will be broadcast

1080 P is really for blu ray and HD dvd films

to put it in simple terms

They are looking at 2010 for the next freeview upgrade. So I would get a telly without an inbuilt tuner as the inbuilt digital tuner will be obselete as well as the analogue tuner.

It costs more at the moment anyway to get an integrated tuner BUT you may not have a choice on the bigger sets

I feel the best thing to be future proof is to make sure your telly has HDMI sockets ( the new scart socket )

I may be wrong but I feel the new freeview boxes will have them


Incidentally sky has MPEG 4 decoding just now and they are not sure if the freeview boxes will have MPEG 2 or 4 in HD format

I am not trying to be a salesperson for SKY and wish satellite to be a lot more open. 98.5 % of households can get satellite and that is a lot higher than freeview will ever get
niall campbell
08-11-2007
Originally Posted by Lizzybif:
“Not too far from transmitter (Rumster) but the original signal is sent by the Durris transmitter which a long way away. How far is a 'long way off'?
I can actually see the Rumster transmitter from my house.It is about 30 miles away I think.

I have a Humax 9200 PVR.”

man you are a long way off !!!!

Durris is in Aberdeenshire, and you are in Gods country in the Highlands

http://www.ukfree.tv/shutdowndetail.php?tx=NO763899

details for your transmittor are

http://www.ukfree.tv/shutdowndetail.php?tx=NO763899

The power outputs at the moment are really poor. however in 2010 it will be ten times stronger....................... and this may not sort out your problems.


give us your postcode or check this site out. Its really good but you may become a geek on the subject

http://www.wolfbane.com/cgi-bin/tvd.exe?
Lizzybif
08-11-2007
Originally Posted by niall campbell:
“man you are a long way off !!!!

Durris is in Aberdeenshire, and you are in Gods country in the Highlands

http://www.ukfree.tv/shutdowndetail.php?tx=NO763899

details for your transmittor are

http://www.ukfree.tv/shutdowndetail.php?tx=NO763899

The power outputs at the moment are really poor. however in 2010 it will be ten times stronger....................... and this may not sort out your problems.


give us your postcode or check this site out. Its really good but you may become a geek on the subject

http://www.wolfbane.com/cgi-bin/tvd.exe?”

Niall you are really worrying me now!
My postcode is KW1 4RS

My Freeview picture at the moment is really good with average signal strength of 56% and 100% Signal Quality.

So is this likely to get worse in 2010?

I find it ludicrous that IDTVs may be useless so soon?!!!!!

I watch all TV through the Humax PVR so had hoped that this would be okay for some time?

How are people on low incomes supposed to get a good TV picture?
ianflo
08-11-2007
Originally Posted by Lizzybif:
“Thanks Ian! Yes it is a 'repeater' transmitter. Sorry to be thick but not sure what you mean by 'decode HD signals'?
I am quite happy to stay with SD as long as there is no reduction in quality.

How long can I bury my head in the sand for?

I take it that the only solution is to change to cable?”

If you're up in the highlands I doubt cable will come your way. But do you want to rely on (or try to contact) NTL anyway?

But if you're happy with SD then you can 'put your head in sand' until your box packs in. Of all the tuners out there the Humax is regarded as one of the most sensitive (it can often cause problems as people pick up 2 transmitters rather than 1). Humax have a very good backup system of over the air software upgrades too to help rectify faults.

I understand the HD signals will be broadcast in a different code and will therefore need a new box to receive it (ala Sky HD box vs Sky+).

Sorry I don't have contact email for Ofcom I had (wrongly) assumed they would want to hear peoples views on their plans.

I don't see why aerialview doesn't like freesat idea as this would get more coverage than present one and is cheaper to maintain. If you want to be independant of others then get government to put satellite up and they can auction off space.

And when has a government ever worried about stuffing companies that put cash into projects,if the government can get more cash elsewhere?

The sad fact is that digital is more glitchy and more prone to failure than analogue but when it does work picture and choice is improved. Whenever technology is based on computer programs then the odd glitch will appear - thank Bill Gates for that.
Lizzybif
08-11-2007
Originally Posted by ianflo:
“If you're up in the highlands I doubt cable will come your way. But do you want to rely on (or try to contact) NTL anyway?

But if you're happy with SD then you can 'put your head in sand' until your box packs in. Of all the tuners out there the Humax is regarded as one of the most sensitive (it can often cause problems as people pick up 2 transmitters rather than 1). Humax have a very good backup system of over the air software upgrades too to help rectify faults.

I understand the HD signals will be broadcast in a different code and will therefore need a new box to receive it (ala Sky HD box vs Sky+).

Sorry I don't have contact email for Ofcom I had (wrongly) assumed they would want to hear peoples views on their plans.

I don't see why aerialview doesn't like freesat idea as this would get more coverage than present one and is cheaper to maintain. If you want to be independant of others then get government to put satellite up and they can auction off space.

And when has a government ever worried about stuffing companies that put cash into projects,if the government can get more cash elsewhere?

The sad fact is that digital is more glitchy and more prone to failure than analogue but when it does work picture and choice is improved. Whenever technology is based on computer programs then the odd glitch will appear - thank Bill Gates for that.”

Sorry I meant satellite and not cable.

I don't see why I should be forced to change to satellite having forked out money recently on a good aerial and IDTV.

What about choice?!

All you keep being told just now is you must buy an IDTV if you don't have satellite otherwise you won't have TV when analogue is switched off.

When are the public going to be told about these plans?
nwhitfield
08-11-2007
OK.....

First, this plan is a suggestion; Ofcom has not yet committed to it, and a decision on whether or not (let alone when) DVB-T2 will be introduced in the UK won't be taken until early next year.

No existing equipment will be obsolete until such time as there are no DVB-T MPEG2 transmissions, and there's no date set for that to happen, because there is no definite decision on whether or not to mandate DVB-T2 for HD on Freeview, let alone whether or not to migrate the whole of Freeview to HD using that standard.

So, any talk of obsolescence is somewhat jumping the gun.

As things stand, Ofcom is proposing that one mux be used to provide HD, using the DVB-T2 standard, from late 2009. Personally, I think this is pretty optimistic; there are a couple of reasons.

The main one is that the DVB-T2 standard isn't even at draft stage - that's expected by next spring. And people who know more than me about these things expect that mass production of equipment based on the yet-to-be-designed chips for this yet-to-be-published standard probably won't happen until 2010.

Second is that there will be some juggling of mux allocations necessary; if Ofcom decide that they're going to re-use a current commercial mux, then there's a lot of unpicking of contracts to do, and that could take a long time. If they take a BBC mux, then there's possibly less juggling, but doubtless a considerable amount of horsetrading.

When HD starts, there is no current equipment that will pick it up; no current equipment will work with DVB-T2, because it's not a finished standard. And if the BBC starts broadcasts using the current DVB-T standard next year, it will be using MPEG4/AVC anyway, so only one or two boxes (Evesham iPlayer HD, a Technomate, and not much more) will be able to receive it.

You will still be able to receive current broadcasts, and if the single HD mux is launched in 2009/2010, then it's probably possible for that to happen with no significant loss of other channels, though some +1s might go by the wayside, to free up space.

I think the 2017 timetable is even more optimistic for moving the whole of Freeview to DVB-T2 and HD than saying 2009 for a single mux, frankly. It's very ambitious, and much more likely that it'll be 2020 or later, in my view.

Even if it were 2017, that means any kit you buy now is going to be working for ten years; long before then, the hard drive, power supply, or something else is likely to have conked out.

The public will be informed of the plans - when they are actual plans, and not just outlines of things that might happen, depending on the development of new standards, and horsetrading between mux operators.

At the moment, despite the impression given by some news stores, there's nothing set in stone, and no decision made. Ofcom has said that they'll come to a decision in the spring. And even then, I doubt they'll lay out a formal timetable, since that will obviously depend very much on the ability of people to make equipment, if they decide to go for a new standard.
Lizzybif
08-11-2007
Many thanks indeed for explaining things!

I will calm down now!!!!
David (2)
08-11-2007
the DVB-T2 idea is indeed off putting to me as a current Freeview user. Although this is some thing for the future, I have to say that such a change plus the move to HD in any form would push me toward satellite. This way, the tv electronics which are built in wont make any difference. You will have to get a satellite SD/HD box plain and simple.

However, for this to happen, we need proper Freesat - so we dont have to buy a Sky branded decoder to view Ch4 and Ch5 on it. And we will need PVR options - but we dont want to be forced into paying Sky for the record function every month - so again a Freesat PVR is required too.

That said, not everyone can get a satellite signal - this is usually down to 2 reasons...

a: You are not allowed to have a satellite dish on the building (can be for a number of reasons).

b: The line of sight to the satellite is blocked by a large tree or other object which is very close. I know of 2 such houses which are unable to get the Sky signal due to very high trees blocking the signal.

Maybe what we need is satellite and iptv (tv up a phone line), this way everyone should be able to get one system or the other.

Cable tv is not really an option as most people dont live in a "Cabled" area.

Dave
niall campbell
08-11-2007
Originally Posted by Lizzybif:
“Niall you are really worrying me now!
My postcode is KW1 4RS

My Freeview picture at the moment is really good with average signal strength of 56% and 100% Signal Quality.

So is this likely to get worse in 2010?

I find it ludicrous that IDTVs may be useless so soon?!!!!!

I watch all TV through the Humax PVR so had hoped that this would be okay for some time?

How are people on low incomes supposed to get a good TV picture?”


your signal strength will improve 2010 with transmittor increasing power by 5 ( 5 times more powerful )

this will not mean a huge leap but a good enough increase and if your picture not freezing or going into lots of pixels your OK

http://www.ukfree.tv/transmitters.php

they are basing the fact off every ten years people will have to replace their boxes......................... its just sods law that it will happen around the time analogue shutdown!

it will be hard enough for some folk to get their head around digital telly when they have to get another!
niall campbell
08-11-2007
Originally Posted by David (2):
“the DVB-T2 idea is indeed off putting to me as a current Freeview user. Although this is some thing for the future, I have to say that such a change plus the move to HD in any form would push me toward satellite. This way, the tv electronics which are built in wont make any difference. You will have to get a satellite SD/HD box plain and simple.

However, for this to happen, we need proper Freesat - so we dont have to buy a Sky branded decoder to view Ch4 and Ch5 on it. And we will need PVR options - but we dont want to be forced into paying Sky for the record function every month - so again a Freesat PVR is required too.

That said, not everyone can get a satellite signal - this is usually down to 2 reasons...

a: You are not allowed to have a satellite dish on the building (can be for a number of reasons).

b: The line of sight to the satellite is blocked by a large tree or other object which is very close. I know of 2 such houses which are unable to get the Sky signal due to very high trees blocking the signal.

Maybe what we need is satellite and iptv (tv up a phone line), this way everyone should be able to get one system or the other.

Cable tv is not really an option as most people dont live in a "Cabled" area.

Dave”

maybe broadband will be the way forward ..................... if your not in an outlying area!!
Lizzybif
08-11-2007
Originally Posted by niall campbell:
“your signal strength will improve 2010 with transmittor increasing power by 5 ( 5 times more powerful )

this will not mean a huge leap but a good enough increase and if your picture not freezing or going into lots of pixels your OK

http://www.ukfree.tv/transmitters.php

they are basing the fact off every ten years people will have to replace their boxes......................... its just sods law that it will happen around the time analogue shutdown!

it will be hard enough for some folk to get their head around digital telly when they have to get another!”

Thanks Niall!
Thankfully I am not bothered by freezing or pixellation so , hopefully,that will be okay.

I am not going to worry about things for now and deal with it as it arises like everyone else with Freeview will have to do.

If Ofcom's plans do come to fruitition(hopefully not for a long time) then I will weigh up my options and if Satellite is the way to go then so be it!
ianflo
09-11-2007
Originally Posted by niall campbell:
“maybe broadband will be the way forward ..................... if your not in an outlying area!!”

The internet is groaning now so if everyone got tv via it it would conk out.
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