This was an interesting point (and not one I would have picked up on otherwise seeing as I know as much about the technicalities of ballroom dancing as CRH ) ~ lets hope CRH gets called to justify this on ITT.

she didn't remind them how to vote - what she said was perhaps people should think about what they were voting for and what kind of final they wanted. She didn't rant or get arsey -she made her views known which (as everyone is so fond of saying on here), she is entitled to do

Agreed, it wasn't a rant, nor was it said in an unpleasant manner, but it was tantamount to asking people not to vote for Kate, which I found a bit OTT. (I guess, I always expect impartiality from TV commentators)
Anyway, that's Karen's view, and mine is that the programme needs its Kates as much as it needs its Aleshas. These 2 are the highlights of my Saturday night SCD viewing for very different reasons.

Am really enjoying Karen's input on Breakfast. Although I do wish she would give us more insight into the technicalities of the dancing and marking rather than trying to second guess the voting peculiarities.

Did you watch her this morning or are you just going by what others said

I think Karen's attitude to Kelly has been pretty consistent throughout. I don't think Kelly was overmarked but Kenny was undermarked. Karen also knows how influential she is.

Orin! That wasn't very nice! I did watch it and which others do you mean? I haven't seen any comments by anyone else.... I was only voicing my thoughts, and to borrow Kittles' words "it wasn't a rant or being arsey".

Not that I watched Karen, (as if) but I expect she was just reading from the BBC hymn sheet, just like the non- Karenites on here have to read from the pink&fluffy sheet when Karen is mentioned.

Wise words

I have to admit I have never (since long before Strictly) been a fan of Karen's, but I do think she talks a lot of sense on a Monday morning, to the extent that, to my own surprise, I find I'm actually beginning to like her......

I'm disagree that she reads from a leader board, but undoubtedly the subject matter would have been discussed beforehand.

As for her pointing out that the public might like to think of "what sort of final they want to see" - why shouldn't she?

At the end of the day this IS a dancing contest, and like all other contests the BEST should make the final and I fail to understand why anyone would want otherwise?

Surely if someone wasn't interested in the dance aspect, they wouldn't want to watch the prog in the first place? There's plenty other shows where they can see their fave celebs.

Just a bit difficult to comment on something you havn't watched I should think

I think Karen's technical input is invaluable , but to some extent she is constrained by time .

She never gets a chance to go into too much detail about the judges/dancers which is a shame .

She did point out that normally judges will give their marks and then don't have to justify them ( in competitions) , but the SCD judges do.

She felt that Len gets frustrated at technical mistakes that are overlooked in favour of a " goood performance" visually.

I didn't see her this morning - DRAT!
But one thing I find interesting from this thread is:
Some posters seem to think that if a commentator makes a point that they don't agree with, suddenly its the commentator that is biased/wrong/has an ulterior motive.
My opinion is that Karen has always been extremely diplomatic about the other dancers and celebs. Even if she criticises something about their dancing, she has never made a 'personal' attack on them. I have always thought her comments were fair, even if I don't agree with them.
As far as her mentioning the voting, it is a fair point - the show is now at the point where the 'bad' ones have gone or improved enough to merit staying. That said, I do vote for the dance I most enjoy on the night regardless of who is the dancer.

Please note: I like Karen, but am not one of the die hard Karen fans and if she said or did something OTT I would be one of the first to point it out.

I'm really enjoying Karen on Breakfast tv.

On the heel leads issue. I have a slightly different take on it. OK it was stupid of Craig to mention a specific ballroom technicality if he knows that Len is going to talk later. He could have just as easily picked up on some more general dance technique to justify his mark.

But Craig is willing to use his marks for what he seems to look for in the dance. But Len - our ballroom expert - gave a 9 to a dance that, according to Karen an eminent judge in the real world, contained no heel leads.

The problem therefore lies with Len not marking appropriately for ballroom technique. As he is a lone voice in the sea of pop and theatre choreographers, this is one area that makes the judges marking bizarre at times.

He does try to reward technique in dancers lower down the cumulative leaderboard. As a long term dance teacher, he understands the 'j' word and rewards accordingly. The other three work with trained dancers and their job would often be similiar to SCD professionals where they have to work around the 'headliner' be that a pop-star or an actor in a musical (could make them a little cynical when they don't think the celebrity is putting in the effort).

The judges keep telling us they vote for different things. So I would be happy to have Len declare that he would be the judge who : after judging the overall performance would fine tune his mark by taking into account whether the celebrity had improved on technique. For some that may be 'hearing the music and dancing'; for others it may be gorgeous footwork over performance but most importantly, he would judge the top-three or four on improving specific ballroom technique showing it to a high level.

I agree, Inner Self. She should have a ten minute slot on ITT to explain more, because she doesn't have enough time on Breakfast.

And she is right about Len getting frustrated when technical errors are overlooked - Len always gets frustrated at what he sees as unfair judging:

we were at a comp once; Len was chairman of the judges; he became so outraged at a certain couple's placing in a final he demanded a 'recount' - all the judges pieces of paper had to be dug out of the bin they had been thrown into, so he could see exactly who marked what. It didn't change the results, but I can tell you that the offending judge was made to look very silly and was not asked to judge again. How do I know this? Because we were the couple Len got hot under the collar about - we didn't know him at the time, so it wasn't a 'favouritism' thing.

Neither do 95% of the viewing public I suspect

I always watch with my mum who knows about technique, posture etc etc whereas I know nothing.

Very often I`ll say I enjoyed a routine and she`ll point out the faults etc., It`s like having my own personal `red button` commentary in the living room !

Great anecdote ~ thanks for sharing!

I'm no expert but its amazing how 2 years of lessons ( be it only social classes) can give you an eye for technical things

I watch this series in a totally different way to how I watched series three.

Was looking back on series 3 yesterday and it was very interesting to se how much more the professionals were letting their partners dance out of hold then and to some extent giving them more complicated routines .

I can't speak for series one or two as I didn't watch regularly then.

Craig has said many times before that the judges mark on different things and he is mainly looking at the choreography the celebrity has to attempt. Personally, I don't think Karen should be 'judging' the performances as we have four judges and the red button commentary to do that.

It doesnt make sense then that he said Kenny didn`t do heel leads then when he obviously did

Why shouldn't Karen tell us what she sees. I find her comments extremely interesting.

Surprisingly enough I can read! but as you well know I take pink&fluffy with a large pinch of salt.:yawn:

I agree.

And vinegar

Tut,tut, OD on the prune juice again.

I think it is up to the BBC to decide what kind of programme they want, rather than blaming the viewers or more to the point, the voters.

If they want it judged on the dancing fine - but only open the phone lines after everyone has danced on a Saturday and close then at the vote count, and leave them closed until the next week.

You can - if you are so inclined vote now. But for what? I don't even know what dancers the couples are doing next Saturday yet so how can I vote in advance? And how can you vote for what went on on Saturday - that vote is closed now?

It just seems like the SCD P that B are getting a bit crabby because they thought they had a masterplan and the naughty public found a loophole.

The sooner they realise that it's a situation of their own making and yes, maybe 50% of it is down the public, but 50% of it is down to them, their arrogance at thinking all they have to do is tell the public the order they want people to leave and the voters will roll over, and their greed at having a 7 day vote and that the answers lie with them the better it will be and they will seem slightly less bitter, too.