You're characterising it as a prank much like the toe-tweaking incident that provoked Jon's vicious and inflammatory comments.

That's fine by me. Just put it on the tape as suggested above along with Justine's comments pre and post eviction about how offensive and intimidating/off-putting she found it and let others decide.

Oh, and maybe the footage of the girls wetting themselves laughing immediately after the Ray incident would also assist in placing Jon's completely over-the-top remarks to Ray and the response to that outburst by Cameron and others in context.

Don't see how people who complain about Ch4 giving viewers a partial account can hope to strengthen their case by compiling a partial account in response.

(And no, I'm not a Ray supporter either).

VoR when this footage is put together (if it ever is) I suggest that you actually view it.

If you'll do, you'll see that Jon was quite clearly suggesting to Ray that his behaviour was on a par with PHYSICAL abuse.

If you agree with Jon on this then surely the tape should also include footage of Jon dry-humping Justine and her comments afterwards which indicate that she was far more upset by Jon's behaviour than the giggling in the girls' bedroom after Ray's visit suggested they were.

I have a tape of that night, haven't watched it all yet, my 4 hour tape starts when ray is creeping into the girls room and finishes just before scott and fed finally went to bed i think, I've really only watched as far as fed winding ray up about being a bald headed gimp.

If someone can give me a rough time from ray entering the girls room to when this is said i can check, i really don't want to sit through 4 hours of tape just now.

No one's making a tape because we don't have footage. That's because :-

1) We on this forum made it all up.
2) We didn't make it all up but we're obviously exaggerating what was said.
3) Everything they said was justified because Jon's comment was so over the top.

Which is it, then?

It's very simple - all the other events have been shown and reported on the C4 site and the viewer was left to make up their own mind. This one has been expunged from all official records and never happened according to the C4 news site, and higlights.

The other events have all been reported on, this one hasn't, so as we're not actually producing the program, I see no reason why someone couldn't produce a tape showing the events of that night for those interested.

Fine.

Put Jon's comments on the night in question in context as suggested above to obtain a clearer understanding of the reaction to his comments by the other HMs including Cameron.

Otherwise, don't bother because you will effectively be accusing Ch4 of giving viewers a partial account whilst doing the same yourselves.

You should be at about the right time as far as you've watched. Soon after that.

It all starts about 2am onwards and after Ray lying on the floor
should be the right time.

.http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/...+a+personality

Why do people keep calling him a bible thumper? to my knowledge he hasn't brought up the subject of religion once, let alone tried to proseletize anyone. Got knows he's got his faults, but a foaming at the mouth christian fanatic he aint

The reason why Justine decided it was upsetting all of a sudden was because of a remark made by Sissy and the only reason this stupid woman decided to backpeddle was because she didn't want to be associated with the geek (her interpretation not anyones on this forum). If anything Jon was more of a victim concerning this matter than Justmean.

What about his 'argument' with Jon over creationism etc, where amongst other things he suggested that central and south American tribes in the rain forest would 'burn in hell' as they are not christians? Or has that been conveniently wiped from the record as well? That was very early on in BB and is the event that put me off Spameron in the first place.
Or as my husband just summed it up: " a smug and superior person basically sat there and told everyone that they are charcoal"
Mave

Didn't Cameron go into the Diary room though and start reading passages from the Bible to BB, also perhaps the apple he keeps playing with is a sort of sublime reference to Adam and Eve.

So, essentially your argument is that:

(a) If Jon engages in a prank that can be interpreted/misinterpreted as harrassment, it's ok because it's Jon.

(b) But if another HM (eg Ray) engages in a prank which can also be interpreted/misinterpreted as harrassment, its not ok because it's not Jon

(c) Jon is justified (in spite of (a) ) in implying quite clearly that the other HM's behaviour is abusive. Regardless of the double-standard he is adopting, this is fine because it's Jon.

(d) Cameron and other HMs who react angrily to (c) should be ejected from the house and Ch4 should be criticised for only giving a partial account of events (but if anyone mentions (a) they're guilty of bias against Jon).

You lot are as biased as you accuse Ch4 of being.

It was not a prank Justine was a willing partner in this and she wasn't forced into doing it. As I said in an earlier post her reaction was due to a comment from Sissy hours after and Justine used this incidence to distance herself from him because she realised he was the geeky scapegoat.

Your arguement doesn't hold up, as a lot of Jon fans expressed on here that Jon may have been wrong to pull Ray up on something he did. It's Cameron and Ray's fan's who won't have a word said against their hero's not us.

It's a fact that no violent tendencies have been seen to emmanate from Jon, apart from a raised voice at times. Cameron and Ray have expressed threatening behaviour in words and actions, though not at Jon, towards Jon, wheather you want to believe it or not.

Bullies are essentially cowards, ie: Cameron and Ray.

Justine herself indicated that she felt very uncomfortable with it and that it marked a turning point in her relationship with Jon - she did not feel comfortable in his presence after that because of his behaviour. You're right it wasn't a prank, but that is the way Jon supporters on here are trying to depict it.

The Ray incident was much more clearly a "prank" but has been treated as the opposite by both Jon and his supporters.

We all saw how Justine enjoyed the episode with Jon, and was dancing with him after the event..she turned on him well after that. Ray on the other hand has: tried to rip Anushca's top off in the pool in the 1st week, forced Tania into the show...very physical and quite rough...as well as the scaring incident. So, I think Jon had a good point. Besides, Jon's comments did not warrant the sort of things Cameron was discussing. Roll on two weeks so we can get him out!

You are missing the point totally. The 'harrassment', whether misinterpreted or not, isn't the issue. Whether or not Jon was correct to accuse Ray of mental abuse is a moot point. His actions were shown. People can make their own minds up.

The issue here is that the actions of Ray, Cameron et al following Jon's remarks were not shown or reported on, despite being (in a lot of people's opinions) very significant.

AND Jon (see previous posts re the dry-humping incident.

You can't have it both ways. If Ray and Cameron are guilty of bullying then, as previously argued, by the same measure so is Jon.

In that context, the reaction by Cameron and other HMs to Jon's hypocritical remarks after the Ray incident can be seen in a much clearer light.

Tell the whole story, not just the part of it that favours your hero. Otherwise you're just as guilty of bias as Ch4 and are in NO position to whinge about that.

IF that is the issue, then you are wrong. It clearly WAS shown.

I saw it and the original post to this thread is seeking footage of it!

You are the one missing the point - along with others here. There are none so blind as cannot see. The accounts of the injustice meted out to Jon on this mb are SO partial that the depiction of what happened is MORE biased than the account provided by Ch4.

However much Jon's fans dislike it and choose to ignore it, his comments to Ray and Cameron and other HM's reaction to those comments has to be viewed in the context of Jon's own behaviour with Justine.

I have already replied to posts re: dry humping incident, as have other's on here, so please read.

What are you on about, having it both ways, Cameron and Ray are both bullies, Jon is not, as I said the worst Jon has done is to raise his voice, not to insinuate he would want to use physical violence on someone and make appropriate gestures to force the point. So how is Jon a bully.

If you advocate your hero's actions in the house, then imo you are no better.

The whole story has been told time and again, you need to reread some of the posts, only it's you Ray and Cameron supporters who are unwilling to believe it.

Surely Cameron couldn't be evicted for saying something ?
Sh*tting in Jons shoes or p***ing in his shower gel for real I could understand but talking about it .................

Sorry, I should clarify. I meant that Ray and Cameron's remarks were not shown widely (i.e. on the CH4 show, BBLB, RI:SE, etc.), and not reported on the official site. Only a few obsessives (no offence to anyone here) will be watching E4 at 3am on a schoolnight. The vast majority of BB viewers were denied the chance to see this event.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Have you got a capture card Hammy?

If so, put it on disc or, ask Calrissian to sort it out for you I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

You could just check the timings of the posts in the big-ass thread that developed at the time.


Also, something that's been bugging me for days...

I watched the Ray incident in the girls' room on E4 highlights the next day, and thought to myself (as did others) that Steph's voice became somewhat uncomfortable to listen to for a few seconds. When they showed the same incident on the CH4 highlights show I thought something was missing.

I just checked the show again and am certain they deliberately removed those seconds --- less than five, I would guess.

Why would they do that???