The worst Jon has done is raise his voice? You REALLY do need to check out that footage of the dry humping episode and to listen to Justine describe its subsequent effect on her.

You may have replied to previous posts mentioning the above incident, but you haven't responded to the points raised.

Basically, have the courage of your convictions: if this fictitious tape of what occurred was to be made, then the aftermath of Jon's comments need to be seen in a broader context which includes Jon's own behaviour towards Justine.

I'm sorry to repeat myself but - for obvious reasons I suspect - all of you are sidestepping and ignoring that point.

if you're so convinced of your argument, surely you believe the above can do no harm to it? If you're so angry at Ch4 for their partial depiction of events, surely you don't want to repeat the same "offence"?

I've suggested a running order for the tape. Go for it and let others judge.

He read one short passage............
As for the apple, if you can make that connection from a piece of fruit then who knows what message the others are giving out when they handle fruit n veg

I didn't see that and now - as an atheist - have a very different view of our Orkney geezer.
Being an atheist means - of course - that I won't be burning in any Christian fanatics fantasy after life. And I'll pee in the shower gel of any of them that tries to tell me otherwise !!
Thanks Mavis - you've provided a great public service with that recollection.

You obviously didn't watch that incident (as you call it ) live. I did and Justine was the one hanging onto Jon and encouraging him more. It was only after they left the reward room and Gos was teasing her about it she decided it was tantamount to rape.

The whole incident started with her writhing on the disco floor saying she had always wanted to have sex on a floor like that.

Her behaviour out of the house has not helped her I'm a victim mentallity if the newspapers are to be believed.

Did have, but hasn't work since upgraded to XP.

Have watch and haven't found it yet and so far i am up to just after the football chat and when cam has just came back in from the garden and they seem to be starting to talk about jon again. Stopping for now, away ro watch BBLB.

You are the one side stepping not me, I have heard the so called reasons Justine has given, and they seem to change slightly or not so slightly each time, and as someone has already said a few posts back if you have bothered to read the post, Justine was convieniently not effected by the incident , until Sissy pointed out that how close Justine and Jon seemed and how the public would envisage it.

Even the psychologists picked up on the fact Justine was ok with Jon until well after the incident, Sissy made that innocent remark and Justine's attitude changed from then on. I too am not going to repeat myself again on this subject as it is going in one ear and out the other with you, so all I can suggest again is READ ALL THE POSTS on the subject, sorry to shout, but thought it was the only way to get through to you.
Last edited by Susann : 24-06-2003 at 18:38

Found it. They are talking over the incident as both ray and jon are in the bedroom, and gos, scott, cam and fed are on the sofa.


Scott to cam – I hadn’t seen you react like that before.

Cam – About that (referring to Jon’s out burst at ray), I was fuming, you know I don’t get wound up easily, ye ken (You Know)

Scott – yeah

Cam – But that, I could take somebody like that by the throat and smash their face right to the back of their head. I mean that sounds violent and extreme.

Fed – It does that

Scott – It does a little.

Gos – Fed (think he was trying to make sure fed didn’t get involved here)

Cam – But when it’s something that is pointless, it would be one thing if they (referring to the girls here) were getting peed off and upset,

Scott – they were laughing.

Cam – Exactly, if your no happy stay out of it

This is followed by cam describing some incident in the garden involving ray and Jon during the day, sort of saying Jon was in the wrong the way he talked to ray.

Some banter back and forth, fed saying he doesn’t actually get into fights, he just winds people up into wanting to hit him. Scott ends this little bit by saying that violence will not ensue from ray and Jon’s argument and that Jon will think that the shower gel prank was caused by Nush not Ray.

Cameron then picks up scissors; during the next part of the conversation Cameron has a more serious demeanour and posture, very thoughtful serious looking face.

Cam – You know, of anything that has gone on in the house, I wish this (meaning ray/jon’s argument) was on that screen (TV).

Scott – We sat here and witnessed it, I don’t think it was that big a deal.

Cam – I would have been mad if I had been ray.

Fed says something not sure what, just a couple of words.

Gos says something right after fed, could not get the first bit, then says you lying bastard.


Cam – I wouldn’t say that, but if it had been me, well

Gos – I would have laughed it off, not take it seriously and said ok Jon whatever.

Fed – yeah

Gos – I think ray did the right thing.

Cam takes scissors in clenched fist and imitates a stabbing downwards motion with them, has a very serious look on face.

Gos – Put those fcuking scissors down

The conversation is still going but that’s enough for now will add more if I think it’s worth it.

Just watching it, it seemed like a serious conversation about the ray/Jon incident, the only laughing started was when fed and scott laughed at cameron’s smash his face down his throat statement, I think they were laughing at being shocked that Cameron would say this.

It doesn’t seem to be said with a lot of vitriol as per rays ranting but the parts that matter do seem to be said with some feeling by cameron, but it certainly isn’t said in a humorous or joking way IMHO.
Last edited by Hammy : 24-06-2003 at 20:05

Please do us all a favour and make a copy so you can send it to someone with a capture card! It'll shut up the moronic Cameron fans and I can host it on my server if need be!

The point is that Jon's comments have already been presented in a broader context. The dry-humping incident was shown. Justine's participation was shown. Justine's friendliness towards Jon immediately afterwards was shown. Her later anti-Jon comments about the incident were all shown. And Jon's 'mental abuse' remarks to Ray were shown. We, along with the general BB viewer, have all been given opportunity to make up our own minds about it, in context. And people have differing opinions about it.

What hasn't been shown (except to a few insomniacs) are Cameron's vicious remarks following Jon's confronting of Ray. Unless I'm misinterpreting things, that's the thing people here are angry about. We've all been given the chance to see and make our minds up about Jon's part in this. The general BB viewer hasn't been given the chance to see and make their minds up about Cameron's part. Am I right, folks?

I'll make a copy at work tomorrow. If somebody who can use it wants to send me a message or whatever, so i can send it to them, then no problem.

Lot of good stuff on the tape, from Jon/ Ray spat to Fed winding ray up which is funny as hell and then cam's party piece.

Surely you mean subtle, not sublime. Are you Federico?


I must say I wasn't entirely comfortable with the Jon and Justine thing and if he'd done what he did to me, I would have kneed him in the cojones. I would have said that her giggling, conscious participation in the horseplay made it less of an issue than being woken up by a man lurking at the foot of your bed, but really the only person entitled to decide whether or not it was harassment is Justine. And she is also entitled to decide that after it had happened as long as we are entitled to judge her decision on the basis of what she says. As you say, that is what happened. There was also, as I recall, no editorial (ie Davina etc) comment on Justine's reconstruction of the night. Which is different from being called a killjoy on the Friday night live show.

.........and if you're passing a Tesco's while you're doing that, could you pop in and get me a couple of.....................................

I think that if the public that only get C4 or those that do not watch E4 through the night got to see what Cam said on one of the evening BB shows, then Cam would not still be there.

He is purly there because of editing and this is the one time you have to admit that there is no doubt about the fact.

Be honest how many Grannys that love Cam would of voted for him to stay on Friday if C4 had shown what he can really be like when his mask slips?

I use to like I Cam, I saw how nasty he was and I was really shocked , he surpassed anything I have ever seen anyone do in any of the BB's. Adele did not have a patch on him.
And its galling to know he is only there because a true account was not shown.

I fail to see how the simulated sex / dry humping / whatever you want to call it between Justine and Jon in the reward room can be drawn as a comparison when discussing the comments made by Cameron or whether Ray was out of order or not in his foot tickling prank.

Justine was just as involved in the humping exercise as Jon, engaging her legs around him and laughing along. Her attitude towards Jon turned on the basis that she resented people trying to pair the two of them up. It is most feasible that she looked back on the humping incident with regret as it acted as a catalyst in people expecting a relationship between Jon and Justine to blossom. She showed no distress at the time, mainly as there was nothing to be distressed about, it was a scene of high spirits, fuelled by booze and music and the audience around them. Three days after the hump, the two were head to head in an eviction battle and Justine tried to play every card at her disposal to remain, whether it was slighting Jon over the humping, spilling the beans on her three in a bed or her general acting as a bit of a two faced, bitter, spoilt little b*tch.

Whilst Jon had obviously ticked Cameron off something rotten, the effect on Cameron, his snarling, brooding, nastyness was quite without cause and an over the top response. Who knows why C4 thought the majority of viewers need not see this the night the eviction was decided?

As for Ray, I thought it was a pretty amusing trick to pull and that Jon probably had over reacted. I'd rather an over reaction based on a concern for the well-being of others than an over reaction involving defacating in shoes, urinating in shower gel (to go off on a tangent but no wonder Alex Sibley thought that Jon was hard done by the editing - Alex was repulsed by pissing in the shower, just imagine if Jonny had pissed in his shower gel! ) and wanting to smash faces and throw eggs.

Yes that is the main point of contention as far as I am concerned.

Yes ok subtle, or whatever, dear me you are picky. sure FM's knew what I meant.

Federico Have I changed sex, no, not since I last looked.

You're a star.

I can also confirm that the cameron incident happened and I emailed bb4 to complain that they didn't show camerons nasty side. BB4 are now trying to assassinate tania. I don't paricularly like her but if you're going to vote keep her in to wind them up.

I know, I can't help it.


Joking aside, I'm only interested in people seeing the whole picture and not the selected parts that C4 are showing, which is giving a false Impression of what people are really like or what is actually is happening in that house.

My disgust at C4 editing started with fed, while fed is an arrogant immature young man, C4 failed to show some of his late night / early morning conversations, especially those with Scott, which showed that there is more to fed than that what we were seeing on the highlights show. He may come over as brash and abnoxious at times, but in those conversations, it was obvious that there was a genuine likeable guy underneath, which for whatever reasons, he seems to be trying to hide.

[quote]Originally posted by Tickle_Disciple
I can also confirm that the cameron incident happened and I emailed bb4 to complain that they didn't show camerons nasty side. BB4 are now trying to assassinate tania. I don't paricularly like her but if you're going to vote keep her in to wind them up. [/QUOTE

Bloody hell they're trying to ASSASSINATE her?!
Big Brother is getting a bit harsh isn't he?

I have that tape of CH4 highlights show and noticed that Steff `s
voice had changed when she was telling Ray to get out.
Compaired to the night on E4 Steff`s voice was hoarse/croaky
Iam surre if my memory serves me right that Steff went to the door behind Ray / in highlights she does`t

The reason it was removed I think is that Steff sounded scared.
and angry.Well thats what I thought at the time.

Going from the sublime to the rediculous?

Very good Hammy thank you for finding the tape

terribly picky, I'm a freelance copy editor can't help it!

The Fed reference was just that he seems to misuse words every now and again ... 'futile' when I think he meant 'facile' etc. Teach me to try and make allusions

are we talking 3dfx voodooTV pci? (this being the most famous brooktree TV card to go arsey with XP) if so use the win2k beta drivers and dscaler as the overlay application