I think that the three '10's for the Cha Cha Cha is where the judges went badly wrong with Alesha. This was done to a big Beyonce (hope the spelling's right - I'm not a fan) musical number and a big opening movements which someone described as hey take a look at us. That is when they should have picked up on her footwork rather than being so bowled over by the performance. In demanding perfection they are demanding something that wasn't there in the first place. The bigging her up and the gushing on ITT haven't done her any favours. If the programme was hoping to have females going all the way this year then it has spectacularly failed. I do think that they try to manipulate things sometimes but things don't always work out the way they intended.

yes but exactly the same thing has happened for the last three years, so the producers and judges clearly either don't learn from their mistakes, or are quite happy to have three all-male finals in a row

which is fine if that's what they want but I didn't watch last year's final and I won't if it's a Matt v Gethin one this year

I only watched in S3 because of Colin and Darren's tedious journey and ham-fisted dancing beat him hands down

Yes!

10a - and even large numbers of 8s and 9s - started being handed out way too early this series.

I wonder if a little bit of this was the gender divide in the 1st too programmes and (without wanting to be rude to the chaps) the guys going first. Having given out 27s, and then a lot of the ladies being really rather good/initially better than the guys, they presumably felt the need to score higher.

I do think however that they have strung themselves up with the judges' final say. They diagnosed a problem - that the public weren't keeping the 'best' dancers in, so let the judges have the final say.

What they failed to think through was what are likely to be the side effects of the judges having the final say? The answer is; distrust the judges even more and put in greater 'defence' votes against the judges' opinions.

So I don't think it is exactly the same - I think it is the same effect for different reasons. Whatever, they have still dished Alesha's chances of winning - although I personally believe she will go through to the final. I will vote for her on Saturday because I want to see her there,

Alesha's interview in yesterday's ITT was very interesting from the point of view of this thread.

The J-word was actually spoken, and there was also a little sympathy and underdog action, plus some refreshing honesty about their mistakes in the paso.

But notice: (1) Since it was Claudia who told us that Alesha'd said "nobody likes us any more, we're now the underdog, we're coming out, and (in a little voice) I've also been on a journey", rather than Alesha herself, Alesha was distanced from it in a way that's helped deflect accusations of sympathy-seeking.

And (2) how what Alesha and Matt said about their paso and making it up on the night would work against any feeling that Alesha was too perfect yet also served to suggest she must be a very good dancer.

Claudia's "she's there" comments at points where the celeb guests were Matting and Gethining could also generate some sympathy.

(BTW, conspiracy theorists might wonder about the decision to feature Vincent's choice of favourite dance at this time. Coincidence, perhaps, but it also helped explain why Matt might deserve to still be there.)

...

Anyway, I think some of Alesha's supporters are being too pessimistic.

That she was in a dance-off revealed that she wasn't getting so many votes that she'd never have to face one, but it didn't cause anything bad to happen; instead it's probably helped her by reminding her supporters that they need to vote.

(I think that probably outweighs the encouragement fans of the others may have received from it.)

Also, and regardless of whether it's by accident or design, a lot of things in the show and in ITT may be helping her as well.

Agreed. The judges were just bowled over by the Beyonce number and Alisha's 'Diva-ness' (which, to her credit, she has in spades when she dances), that they forgot to notice it was more of a street dance than a Latin dance.

My least favourite dance of Alesha's (along with the Samba).

I think the judges should try to take in the authenticity of the dance into account when they give the marks.

That way we might have better music.

Could a reason Alesha seems better at ballroom, & that her Latins sometimes miss the dance's distinctive character, be that ballroom's further from the way she's used to dancing?

Fewer habits to unlearn & Craig's 'muscle memory' point; can't fall back on what she'd do naturally?

And in the case of Len and Bruno: boy is that saying something

I definately think that could be true but I also wish Matthew would cut out the street dance wiggly hips bits he seems to have included in quite a lot of their latin routines....I don't think that helps express the individual character of the dances.

Another interesting week.

From the point of view of getting Alesha to the final with a good chance of winning, and without her being seen by too many as another judges' favourite Zoe or Emma, it would be hard to do better.

Last week, Alesha danced 2nd, which seems to carry some danger, wasn't highest with the judges, had some criticism and talk about how one of her dances might be the one that gave her trouble, and ended in the dance-off -- things that could have done a lot to counter any feeling that she was unfairly favoured.

The judges saved her in the dance-off, but it was so clear that she was better than Letitia that there was no controversy about it. Instead, the controversy was about Matt.

This week, she was highest with the judges and avoided the dance-off but, thanks to four 10s and the dance-off decision, the controversy is again about Matt.

So she reaches the final against, arguably, a weaker competitor than Gethin (at least one who's less consistent, less popular in this forum, and with less of a "journey") and in a way that makes it less likely that Gethin' supporters will switch their votes to Matt, the remaining male.

It's possible that the Zoe/Emma effect, the vote for the good-looking guy, and the journey vote have all been countered or neutralised.

Now why do I get the feeling you have an ulterior motive here ......

I don't know. Why do you?

And what ulterior motive are you hinting at?

It's hard to know how to respond to an accusation that's so vague or to know what misunderstanding might need to be cleared up.

Does 2 + 2 = 5!?

Why do you seem to think that there is some conspiracy going on here when there really isn't?

Why are you assuming there'd have to be a conspiracy? Indeed, if you think the things I mentioned could happen only if there were a conspiracy, then it's you who has the conspiracy theory (since, after all, they did happen).

As I said in post #55, helpful things are helpful "regardless of whether it's by accident or design".

Also, to me, a conspiracy involves people talking together and making plans. But if one of the judges felt they'd been over-praising Alesha, for example, and that it might be unfairly harming her chances, they wouldn't have to talk it over with anyone else in order to decide to praise her less and criticise more; and if, say, two or more of the judges felt the same way, and made the same decision, they could do it independently. No conspiracy would be needed.

If you think the things I described could happen only with a conspiracy, then I'd be interested in hearing why.

Anyway, in the past, a number of things have tended to work against female celebs in SCD, especially if they were good dancers from the start. I think it's at least interesting, and probably also a good thing, if the show somehow manages to counter or neutralise them.

It wasnt an accusation, just a feeling that you`re trying to imply everything that occured on Saturday was a cunningly planned event by the judges to get Alesha into the final without showing her obvious favourtism

So if your observations are correct, they`re not protecting her at all from the `teachers pet` tag.

I maybe wrong but my feeling is you`re trying to highlight the fact that Gethin was the sacrificial lamb in this contrived plan, therefore trying to turn his fans against Alesha and support your favourite instead ?

Edit:- The judges must have been rubbing their hands with glee when Gethin performed below par in his Paso

She's protected so long as the vast majority aren't seeing her as the "teacher's pet" -- no matter what the producers' and judges' intentions are. It's about what viewers believe. And right now the vast majority don't seem to believe she's a teacher's p. The controversy is about Matt getting through, rather than Alesha, for example; the questionable 10s most in people's minds are Matt's. Before that, the judges had already toned down the praise for her and had started pointing to imperfections, and so on (as in earlier posts).


When I started this thread, Gethin was still very much still in the running, and none of the final three are my favourite. I keep changing my mind about which one I'd most like to win. (I did vote for Matt, one week, but that was because I thought he should stay, over Letitia; nothing more than that.)


Or it was lucky that Matt did so well with his Waltz?

Re Gethin performing below par in his Paso, I've seen posts saying the Waltz usually (always?) gets higher marks than the Paso (for men?). (I don't remember the claims exactly.) So if we wanted to wonder, there's the question of why, at this stage, Matt had the dance that made it easier to impress.

But the marks have varied so widely in this series that I don't think the choice of dances matters all that much. There was certainly scope for the judges to give Gethin somewhat higher marks and Matt somewhat lower -- enough to swap their places.

Don't be ridiculous. The fact that Flavia is Vincent's partner (on and off the dancefloor) is more the better option why he chose that dance and maybe, just maybe he genuinely thinks that was the best choreographic dance of SCD5. He will unlikely take part on a fixup that will reflect negatively on his partner

Right now, Alesha IS the underdog. Her footwork is being ripped to shreds by Arlene and now Craig, while Matt is having tens and Len BADman's pathetic standing ovation heaped on him.

I have no idea if this is a ploy on the judges' part - or the producers', for that matter. The only thing I would say is that there is generally - from reading all these threads, and from people I have spoken to - more antipathy towards Matt because of what the judges/producers did.

Whatever - go, Alesha!

Matts being protected from mucking up another dance!

I think you've misread my post. I wasn't raising any question about why Vincent picked that dance or suggesting that it might not be his genuine choiuce. Here's the relevant part again, with suitable emphasis added:

(BTW, conspiracy theorists might wonder about the decision to feature Vincent's choice of favourite dance at this time. Coincidence, perhaps, but it also helped explain why Matt might deserve to still be there.)

In other words, the question was about why Vincent (and his choice) were shown at that time, rather than showing some other pro's choice then.

Anyway, todays' fave dance was Alesha's Cha Cha Cha.

(How often is the favourite dance feature, btw? Once a week? Every day?)

whatever the out come now the excitment has gone thanks to len and craig they did not mark the dance off as it was perfromed matt was ahead of the music im not saying gethin should have won the final but he would have made it an exciting contest, alesha will win the only interest now is whether matt will come apart during the final well done judges apart from arlene youve blown it

Have ran a quick eye through this thread and, no matter how they try to cover it up with cliches and dance science, I dont think its my imagination that some people seemed to have a problem with Alesha. Having attended many many dance exams and competitions with my daughter when she was younger I know that judges mark not just on the technical stuff, but also on presentation and content. Therefore, I feel Alesha and Matthew deserved most of the 10s they received as they have all the above going for them and more.
Last edited by Vincy82 : 19-12-2007 at 00:03

It's hard to see exactly what you're disagreeing with, since you don't say who you're accusing or what you're accusing them of, but there are (and have been for years) two very different views about 10s.

One, which I happen to hold myself, is that it's reasonable to give a 10 to a dance that significantly better than one(s) that got 9. Maybe the 9s should have been lower, but that's no reason why someone who danced better shouldn't get a higher mark. Indeed, it would be unfair if they didn't. Also, what matters for the result is the order the marks put them in, rather than the actual numbers. ... I've argued such points a number of times, not least when defending Zoe.

However, quite a few people have a different view of 10s. They think 10 should have a more absolute meaning and should be reserved for dances that are without significant flaws. It's generally been people with views like that who've complained about overmarking. (Though that's not quite so true this year, because there have been so many high marks that there are others reasons to have problems with it.)

In any case, the flaws needn't only be technical ones. They could be in the presentation or content. There are a some people who think the judges should be marking only the technical aspects, but I don't think that view's featured in this thread.