Hi


Yes, the 540 and newer models. Pioneer have been making little if any money on DVD Recorders so outsourced the components/design with these newer models. Prior models were very much designed and built by Pioneer using their own system chips, newer models use the NEC chips.


In standby the Pioneer does nothing with the signal and the 2 SCART sockets are connected straight through, so it should be the same as connecting the Humax direct to the TV, expect for an extra journey through the second SCART lead.


The Pioneer has a Freeview tuner living on a separate circuit board, basically it's like any stand alone Freeview box with the box removed and the board put inside the recorder. It has some data connections so it can be controlled by the recorder, and sends the picture by S-Video. A clue to it's separate origin is the Freeview tuners setup menu, notice it doesn't match the main menus and the menu system isn't as sharp? This is because the menu is from the Freeview tuner connected by S-Video, whereas the main recorder menus are generated by the recorder itself and added to the outputs directly.

So the digital signal from the aerial enters the Freeview tuner that tunes into the channel and then sends the video by S-Video link to the recorder itself. The recorder than has an output video encoder that converts that S-Video into RGB, Composite and Component so you can watch it live from the outputs.

When you record, the S-Video signal is digitalised and compressed to MPEG2 and recorded onto the disc.

It's the input that is S-Video as it's best connection, not the output. So when you play a commercial DVD, that digital information is converted directly to RGB or S-Video or Component like any other DVD player, so the quality is as you would expect. However when recording or watching live via Freeview the Pioneer is like having a separate Freeview box connected by S-Video, except of course there are data connections internally allowing the recorder to tune to the correct channel on a timer recorder and allowing the remote control to control both.

The Humax on the other hand works completely differently, it records the Freeview digital data completely unchanged, so when you play it back it is identical to how it would have been live, hence the better picture quality as it's the digital signal converted straight to RGB whether watching live or a recording.


Yes, as it is being down converted to S-Video then converted to component so it matches the internal Freeview box for quality as that is also S-Video then converted to component.


Yes, it just allows people to connect what they like.


You need to check the standby power options in the Pioneer's setup menu, as you can turn this feature off to save power on standby (as to connect them through in standby it needs to keep some relays powered on) and I suspect that option is selected. Disable power saving in standby and have another go.

Regards

Phil

Just to give you an idea of what we're up against regarding scart cable quality, Maplin list 4 types, only one of which is suitable for a connection using RGB.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/search.aspx?...nu=y&doy=16m12

Firstly thanks

I paid £370 for my 540 (a good price at the time) and the 550 is £290 I'm confident Pioneer is making a decent profit on these.

Ironically you say Pioneer now source lots of their parts from elsewhere. Sony then buy Pioneer's Recorders and pretty much just rebrand them (even the Firmware has Pioneer all over it).


Definitely. The Freeview EPG is functional but very basic. The Humax 9200 EPG is insignificantly better. Pioneer really needed to upgrade this!


It will be interesting to see how my Humax 9200 compares when connected by S-Video. As neither of my Samsung LCD TV's Scart sockets support S-Video I've ordered a cheap S-Video to Scart cable to test it.

That seems like a lot of extra programming just so the signal isn't kept in RGB.


Except in my case I've got lines on the picture . I'm now thinking it's a faulty Scart port (or something connected) causing too much power to be outputted when in RGB mode which affect how much TV handles it, whereas other TVs can cope.

Regardless I hope Humax Tech Support reply soon so I can get into a conversation with them. After seeing what they recommend I may ask for a replacement as at least then I'd know.


Good point. I'll check them.

Thanks again.

That is indeed annoying.

In reality I find a cheap cable is often fine BUT as soon as there is a problem it falls to bits. Then again mostly there isn't. I'd never risk cheap Scart cables but many do just fine.

I know for a fact my decent cables are doing a better job than the cheap cables as the lines get much, much worse using one.

Hi


The link is here: http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/...fx2791621.html

Although they mention a tie in with Panasonic it turns out they went to an NEC platform.

Pioneer has been making some big losses this last couple of years, a lot of which is down to poor DVD Recorder sales.

Regards

Phil

They aren't helping themselves by marking the price of the Pioneer way more than the Sony or Panasonic Recorders. The AV Forums is full of threads of people buying Sony and Panasonic models but virtually none from Pioneer.

The other reason is most either want a cheap PVR or cheap DVD Recorder only unit but for those who want HDD/DVDR machines Pioneer are simply too expensive. Especially when the difference between the Pioneer 550 and Sony 870 is virtually non-existent (full DVD-RAM support on the Pioneer is about it, but Pioneer charge nearly £100 more).

That would be ironic if it was Panasonic considering Sony's source their Recorders from Pioneer. If Pioneer then sourced them from Panasonic it would literally be Panasonic supplying the three.

That article says Pioneer are the fourth biggest, who're the other three? Panasonic, Sony and? Philips maybe. Toshiba and Samsung are too small in the market.

Thanks again.

OH MY GOD!

I turned off the Pioneer 540's power management as Phil explained to enable me to loop-through my Humax 9200 RGB Scart signal to my TV and the lines have gone away.

So in short a direct RGB feed to my TV "specifically" from the Humax 9200 gives me lines but when fed through my Pioneer 540 in Standby no lines. If I'm being picky I can still possibly see minute (and I mean minute) lines BUT these could very well just be the usual Freeview artefacting. I'm inclined to believe they are.

If I look at the Info bar before there were lines, now there isn't. I find that a quick way to tell, as it has a clear blue bar to look at.

I am considering it partially fixed. I say partially as it's no good being left this way. I cannot watch my Humax 9200 when the Pioneer 540 is on, such as recording.

Any ideas what is going on here? Is the Pioneer 540 dampening the power somehow?

I'm amending this statement as after further watching it's wrong, but as I'm too late to edit my post I'll post it below instead:

"If I'm being picky I can still possibly see minute (and I mean minute) lines BUT you really have to be looking to see them."

The bit about Freeview artefacting irrelevant.

CPCs flat scarts are well screened, used 75ohm coax, and feel very well made. And they are only around a fiver!

Ian

Do you only get the lines in bright areas of the picture? It could be the Humax is driving the RGB lines a little "aggressively" for your TV - there have been reports of it over-volting control lines in the past and I have seen 6V on blanking which is supposed to be around 1.5V !!! The TV input could be going into over-shoot. I guess you've fiddled with brightness?

You could sacrifice a cheapy SCART cable and fit various resistor networks into the RGB lines. There are ways to do this while still maintaining the correct impedance. Let me rummage for a while ...

Ian

I already have decent scart cables

What is 75 ohm?


No, right across the picture. The picture is pretty bright most of the time.


Can you buy Scart dampeners or something like that?


Yes but then it's too dark. I like the settings my TV is setup to I don't want to change them.


I'm using a proper scart cable in fact here is what the manufacturer says on one of my scart cables:

"The HCSL14 is both individually and fully screened."

But please rummage for "resistor networks into the RGB lines". I've no idea what that means though

Hi


Forget problems with cables, it has nothing to do with the SCART cable.

I suspect the Humax has some DC component on the outputs and the Samsung TV isn't doing anything to protect against it. The DC component is then causing a problem when the Samsung TV converts the signal internally, probably at the analogue to digital conversion stage.

When you go through the Pioneer it isn't reprocessing the RGB signal (when it is off), but it will be travelling through some capacitors, which are there to remove DV voltage and protect against it, so it stops the problem from happening.

You can record on the Pioneer and watch the Humax through the SCARTs by pressing the '+' button behind the flap when recording.

You may also find a SCART switching box will also do the same thing as looping through the Pioneer, worth a try, if you get from Argos you can always take it back if it doesn't resolve. You would need to go for an active type rather than one you manually switch to get the fix I would have thought.

Regards

Phil

Oh yes, how weird. It's weird this works on the unit itself but the same buttons on the remote give you the expected error that you cannot turn the channel over when recording.

I wonder why they programmed them differently. It's a bit annoying though as turning my Recorder on now reverts it to a dodgy Composite picture from the Scart connection and I have to press the TVs source button to switch to Component. When I press + then - to go back to the Recorder it also chooses the dodgy Scart picture and not Component.

It works but it's a messy workaround to something the Humax 9200 shouldn't be doing in the first place.


Do you mean one like this without the switches? -

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Produc...xt%3ESCART.htm

All the ones at Argos are manual ones . Now I think about it my Dad has one that may do the job. I wouldn't really want to use it though as the cables on switch boxes tend to be cheap negating the whole point of a decent scart cable (generally speaking) but it is worth testing.

I've left it plugged into my Recorder today and after further testing the lines are still there but as I previously explained they're so minute I don't consider it a problem. You have to be looking for them.

Thanks again Phil. You've been very helpful.

Umm, aren't composite and RGB all DC signals? Surely none of them should ever swing negative? A/C coupling them won't therefore work.

Ian

No, because you shouldn't need them! And the fact that you get lines right across suggests that I was wrong regards over-shoot.


But I need a good theory first!

Ian

Just spotted this on hummy.org

Hi


It's always been like this from their very first DVD Recorder, seems daft not to have the option on the remote control I know.


I would think the manual ones are just switches with no electronics, so wouldn't be much use.

Good luck.

Regards

Phil

Thanks Nvingo.

I don't have that flicker problem but maybe the solution is the same. Any idea how or who I can ask to fix it?


It would help. It would be a pain to get up to switch devices.


Thanks again.

Do you mean one with it's own power source?

I have my Dad's now and it has no manual button but no power source either. It relies on one device being turned off, otherwise a mishmash of pictures of shown. Obviously that's not relevant in my case as I'll only be plugging one thing into it.

I've started a thread over at Hummy.org.uk too:

http://www.hummy.org.uk/invison/inde...showtopic=7990

So far Humax haven't replied to my e-mails . I e-mailed them again today asking for a response and saying what we discovered about watching it through the Recorder. I am definitely inclined to get Humax to fix mine or replace it as I don't know with 100% assurance mine isn't faulty.

I've borrowed from my Dad a 5 to 1 Scart switch box. No matter which way I plug it in if I put the Scart cable from the Humax 9200 into it then on to my TV the picture gets significantly worse with an enormous amount of grain/noise.

This switch box has no power source of it's own or any manual buttons. It is only a cheap one too, but it doesn't bode well.

Interestingly it looks exactly the same if I use the cable supplied with the Humax 9200 when plugged directly to my TV.

Which scart switcher at Argos "could" do the job? Thanks.

I put that in for gadgetminds information as it seems he was going to great lengths, whilst his suggestion of the possible cause seems to match that.

Thanks anyway.

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Produc...xt%3ESCART.htm

I tried this for a while but returned it as it upped the switching voltage on pin8 above the point where my crappy old TV could understand it, so I know it re-drives pin8 & it supports RGB on 2 of it's inputs - maybe worth a go....

I actually had a similar issue with my Samsung TV (LE26R74BDX) but with a DVD player and going via a SCART switch. On very white scenes, the picture would flick or even start rolling.

I ended up putting a 75ohm series resistor into the composite line and this fixed it.

Of course, when using RGB, the composite line is just used for sync and not chroma/luma, so I'm not sure how it could cause these lines. This is why I asked whether the problem just happened on very bright areas and suggested maybe some resistors on the RGB lines.

Ian

Can you buy Scarts with these already on? I'm not technical enough to do it myself.

Thanks

No, sorry, this is all home-brew bodging stuff!

Ian