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Old 03-01-2008, 08:51
Woody_Enfield
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I am sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I know there are black bars on my TV during films as my TV is 16:9 and films are 2:13 (I think?), so why didn't TV manufactures make TV's in the correct ratio for films initally?

It just seems pointless having widescreen with the black bars.
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:03
bobcar
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I am sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I know there are black bars on my TV during films as my TV is 16:9 and films are 2:13 (I think?), so why didn't TV manufactures make TV's in the correct ratio for films initally?

It just seems pointless having widescreen with the black bars.
The "extreme" ends of the spectrum are 4:3 which is almost square and 2.35:1 which is very wide (there are other very rare aspect ratios outside these). 16:9 is in between and is seen as a good compromise and is actually a good ratio for normal TV viewing, 2.35:1 is normally used for big budget movies. Since films can be any ratio (some are still made 4:3 like "Eyes Wide Shut") then you can't make a TV that fits all films.

Personally I'd rather have a 2.35:1 TV even though it means that I'd have bars more often than I do currently. The reason for this is that the height of the picture would remain the same which is the important factor in viewing distance - the bars would always be there for non 2.35:1 programmes (the majority).

I don't understand the "hang up" about "black bars" - what is the problem that people have with these?. I actually have grey bars for 4:3 viewing because it limits image retention on my plasma and even they become unnoticeable after a short time whereas fattyvision or the claustrophobia caused by zooming in would never be acceptable.
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:20
broadz
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films are 2:13 (I think?), so why didn't TV manufactures make TV's in the correct ratio for films initally?
Most (but not all) movies are in 2.35:1 ratio. Widescreen TV is not in 2.35:1 ratio. A lot of people who have widescreen televisions may never watch movies. Why should they have to put up with an elongated television designed purely to show some films without black bars when they never watch movies, but have to put up with black vertical bars on everything that they do watch because TV programmes are not made in that format?

Any 4:3 broadcasts would take up a tiny square in the middle of the screen, with an incredible amount of wasted space in black bars to the left and right if TVs were produced to a 2.35:1 ratio. Or these numpties who stretch the picture to fill the screen would have Olive Oyl looking like a 25 stone elephant. Mandy Dingle would be really scary.
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Old 03-01-2008, 10:06
bobcar
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Most (but not all) movies are in 2.35:1 ratio. Widescreen TV is not in 2.35:1 ratio. A lot of people who have widescreen televisions may never watch movies. Why should they have to put up with an elongated television designed purely to show some films without black bars when they never watch movies, but have to put up with black vertical bars on everything that they do watch because TV programmes are not made in that format?

Any 4:3 broadcasts would take up a tiny square in the middle of the screen, with an incredible amount of wasted space in black bars to the left and right if TVs were produced to a 2.35:1 ratio. Or these numpties who stretch the picture to fill the screen would have Olive Oyl looking like a 25 stone elephant. Mandy Dingle would be really scary.
With a 2.35 TV the height would always be the same and the height is the thing which governs the TV size you need - I couldn't care less if there were black (grey) bars for most viewing, so what if 4:3 was a small square in the middle - it would still be the correct height. It's a moot point anyway though because I can't see 2.35:1 TVs being made in the near future.
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Old 03-01-2008, 12:02
kempshott
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I am sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I know there are black bars on my TV during films as my TV is 16:9 and films are 2:13 (I think?), so why didn't TV manufactures make TV's in the correct ratio for films initally?

It just seems pointless having widescreen with the black bars.
Remember that the first widescreen TVs were CRT. I think it would be very hard (and/or expensive) to make a 2.35:1 CRT that wouldn't implode unless the glass was very thick. It would also be pretty hard to get the electron beam to scan accurately across such a non-square screen. So 16:9 may well be close to the CRT limit, and that became the standard.

Not relevent for plasma / LCD screens of course.
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Old 03-01-2008, 17:10
Orbitalzone
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Remember that the first widescreen TVs were CRT. I think it would be very hard (and/or expensive) to make a 2.35:1 CRT that wouldn't implode unless the glass was very thick. It would also be pretty hard to get the electron beam to scan accurately across such a non-square screen. So 16:9 may well be close to the CRT limit, and that became the standard.

Not relevent for plasma / LCD screens of course.
That sounds quite likely.... and imagine how terrible the picture geometry would be on such a CRT!! - it was rare to find a reasonably well setup 16/9 CRT......
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Old 03-01-2008, 20:05
meltcity
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Not all widescreen films have black bars when viewed on a widescreen television. A great number (past and present) use the 1.85:1 ratio, which is so close to the 1.77:1 (16:9) of widescreen TV that on most sets the bars won't even be visible. You can't have a TV ratio that perfectly matches the cinematic ratio because there are two standard ratios (1.85:1 and 2.35:1).

Originally Posted by bobcar
Since films can be any ratio (some are still made 4:3 like "Eyes Wide Shut") then you can't make a TV that fits all films.
Although Eyes Wide Shut was shot full frame 4:3 (like all of Kubrick's films after 2001: A Space Odyssey) it was framed and matted to widescreen for its theatrical presentation. Kubrick removed the matte for the TV versions of his films simply because he didn't like to see his films being cropped. The HD disc versions of Eyes Wide Shut and earlier films have been remastered in widescreen.
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Old 03-01-2008, 21:12
bobcar
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Although Eyes Wide Shut was shot full frame 4:3 (like all of Kubrick's films after 2001: A Space Odyssey) it was framed and matted to widescreen for its theatrical presentation. Kubrick removed the matte for the TV versions of his films simply because he didn't like to see his films being cropped. The HD disc versions of Eyes Wide Shut and earlier films have been remastered in widescreen.
As you know it's a matter of controversy as to whether "Eyes Wide Shut" was supposed to be 4:3 or 16:9. there are proponents for both sides and I'm not knowledgeable enough to do any more than hazard a guess on the matter.
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Old 05-01-2008, 00:12
zigthedog
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What annoys me is stations like UK Gold put in black bars unnecessarily by squashing the picture and then ticking their logo in the black bar. So pointless, is it to try and show we were all short and obese 30 years ago so why worry now?
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Old 05-01-2008, 00:41
bobcar
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What annoys me is stations like UK Gold put in black bars unnecessarily by squashing the picture and then ticking their logo in the black bar. So pointless, is it to try and show we were all short and obese 30 years ago so why worry now?
What UK Gold programme is this? What UK Gold do is show the 14:9 version that the BBC showed on analogue in a 4:3 frame - there's no squashing involved in the ones I've seen.

It'll be good when they do go widescreen though.
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Old 05-01-2008, 10:30
aerialplug
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At this point I would normally rant about the fact that UK Gold comes from the same building as the BBC used to play out their material yet fail to provide their output in widescreen - but at least now we've been told that they're going to be doing true widescreen sometime this year...

about time.
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:37
CWatters
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It's reported in the media that early Philips Ambilight TVs had a problem with black aspect ratio bars (no ambilight top and bottom)...

If ambilight is so great why doesn't someone create a version that replaces the black bars with dynamicly illuminated bars as per ambilight? Quick patent it!
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Old 05-01-2008, 15:33
meltcity
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If ambilight is so great ...
I think you just answered your own question!
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Old 06-01-2008, 10:12
zigthedog
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What UK Gold programme is this? What UK Gold do is show the 14:9 version that the BBC showed on analogue in a 4:3 frame - there's no squashing involved in the ones I've seen.
Ah, just reset my TV from Wide to Normal and no longer do I get Obese people but Today, Sunday, on UK History, Walking with Dinasours @ 09:00 the picture has a black band each side and top and bottom, the logo extends into the black bar at the top and commercials also go to the top and bottom of the screen. Via HDMI my TV doesn't have a zoom facility (it does via scart) - any suggestions?

The same problem with UK People & UK Documentary.
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:00
bobcar
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Ah, just reset my TV from Wide to Normal and no longer do I get Obese people but Today, Sunday, on UK History, Walking with Dinasours @ 09:00 the picture has a black band each side and top and bottom, the logo extends into the black bar at the top and commercials also go to the top and bottom of the screen. Via HDMI my TV doesn't have a zoom facility (it does via scart) - any suggestions?

The same problem with UK People & UK Documentary.
This is how UK TV transmits it's images until later this year when they go widescreen.

They have the copies of the programs that BBC made to send 16:9 over analogue, they converted to 14:9 letterbox as a compromise. Your best bet is to watch via scart and switch to 14:9 or just put up with the bars.
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