Haha, I'm starting to think you're on a wind up here, you can't be that far behind the times. Social clubs? Hahaha. The Dark Star was at the Sheffield Tap a very well renowned pub that often features in lists of top pubs and has it's own brewery too.

A lot of Brewers produce keg a lot differently to they used to. Brewdog and many other don't pasteurise, and only slightly filter so yeast gets through the filtering, they're not overly gassy either. Your ideas about keg are so far behind the times it's frightening.

Are you seriously telling me that you can't see the benefit of 2/3 measures? You'd drink a pint of something that was over 6.5%? I'd rather have smaller measures for higher ABV stuff and be able to drink a wider variety of beers rather than sit there nursing a pint.

You're obsessed with cost too. Generally beers in pubs are priced on ABV which makes complete sense. 1/3 of something at 12% is the equivalent alcohol wise to a pint of something at 4%.

I'd drink what is traditionally known as a half. I have honestly never heard of a pub selling beer in anything other than one pint and half pint measures and I certainly didn't think it was legal to sell it in any other measures. What I don't understand is why breweries such as Abbeydale would ever bother to brew a keg beer when their Absolution is amongst the finest of cask pale ales. What's the point?


I would never go into a Brewdog pub, but some of these brewers charge excessive prices to catch out gullible young drinkers who've already been fooled into paying silly prices for bottled ciders. They seem oblivious to the fact that they're actually paying the equivalent of £6 a pint for a normal-strength product in a little bottle that they can sip out of whilst posing at the bar. I'll hazard a guess here, but I wouldn't mind betting that the price for two-thirds of a pint is higher by proportion than it is for a pint.

Sorry to be blunt, but this has to be the most ill informed nonsense on this thread so far.

In what way? They are fizzy beers, served cold to appease lager drinkers. Abbeydale admits it.

Why are you so obsessed with prices? You seem to have this strange notion that all beer should be the same price which is ridiculous. Do you think that all wine should be the same price (what do you reckon? £5, £10, £20 a bottle?), how about whiskey or what about food? Should a fillet steak be the same price as a rump steak? Different things cost different amounts, that's how it works. When I'm out I generally don't pay too much attention to prices as I just spot a beer I want on the menu/bar and I order it. In my local bottle shop cans are about £2.80 and bottles range from £2.80 up to £5 depending on a huge number of factors. Anything over £5 tends to be something special (and also tends to be worth every penny). I don't think they're bad prices, for bottles and cans you can probably add another £1 on for pub prices but that's pretty normal.

I can honestly say that in a decent craft ale bar or pub I have never seen anyone drinking from a bottle. In my local Brewdog the first thing they do when you order a bottle is get you the correct glass for the style of drink you've ordered, it's the same in other places. A lot are bottle conditioned too so certainly wouldn't be drunk from the bottle.

Abbeydale is a decent enough brewery, they make some nice beers, the Wet Yer Whiskers I had was one of their better ones, a pale(!) stout with coffee, it was a bit bonkers but totally lovely. Absolution and Moonshine are decent beers but nothing special, I was at a wedding a few weeks ago that had Moonshine on and it was the only decent beer on. I was happy enough drinking it but after a while I did get a little bored and got a hankering for something interesting, I ended up popping to another bar on my way home and sneaking in a nice IPA and a sour to finish the night off. I'd certainly take anything I've had from Beavertown over anything I've had from Abbeydale, regardless of whether it's cask, keg, bottle or can. Put Beavertown's session pale Neck Oil next to Moonshine for example and the Neck Oil is just immense, so much flavour packed into such a small ABV beer. Things like Moonshine and Absolution are pleasant enough but I equate them to something like a Ford Mondeo, nice enough but I want my beers to be Ferraris (or if it is a Mondeo, one with a bloody big V8 engine!).


It's not like that anymore though, it used to be. That's the problem, you're behind the times. You're coming across as a stereotypical, prehistoric, narrow minded, cask militant CAMRA snob (and a miserly one at that!), there's a few about and ironically they've been holding the beer industry back. Thankfully people's minds have broadened and we're in a great age for beer now.

The problem with your arguments are that they all feature lines like "I've never been in a Brewdog" or "I'd hazard a guess" or "I've never tasted it but". You're just spouting outdated ideas based on pre-conceptions and not very much experience.

Take Buxton Brewery for example, quite simply one of the best breweries in the country, I must've had 30 or so different beers of theirs and I've not had a bad one. Everything from traditional IPAs (the stunning Axe Edge) through to experimental whiskey barrel aged Berliner Weisses, they do it all and they do it very very well. Yellow Belly, an imperial stout they do is one of the best things I've ever tasted. Their tap house in Buxton has everything on keg (apart from two cask lines). To think that you'd go in there and immediately dismiss all that beer as crap is laughable.

Good beer is beer that tastes good. A good, well made beer will taste good regardless of whether it comes from a cask, keg, bottle or can.

For most people price is everything, that is why so many now drink discounted beer at home instead of down the pub.

If you are happy to pat £5.00 for a beer then that is up to you, but I would say you're paying through the nose for it. I certainly wouldn't pay that, in the same way I wouldn't pay £4.00 for a bottle of Magner's "Cider".


However in an earlier post you said...


So by your own argument keg beer is still gassy! Why can't you accept that some people, myself included, do not like gassy beer? Beer shouldn't be "gassy" at all and keg beer is still pretty much a "dead" product with little if any secondary fermentaion in the keg..

If, in your eyes, that makes me a "a stereotypical, prehistoric, narrow minded, cask militant CAMRA snob", frankly I couldn't care less, because to me that is your problem and not mine.

There was recently a change in the law so one third of a pint is now a legal measure. Beer, lager, and cider can now be sold in 1/3, 1/2, 2/3 and 1 pint measures.

Some is a bit gassy and some isn't, in exactly the same way that some bottled beers are gassier than others. Even cask has varying degrees of carbonation. I have had keg that has no real noticeable "gassiness".

The issue is that keg beer is a lot different to what it used to be. A lot of people by their own admission haven't tasted anything recently and still have this old fashioned view that keg beer is fizzy lager.

As I said, as a beer lover, if you went to the Buxton Brewery tap house and tried their keg beers I'd be extremely surprised if you didn't like them as they're some of the best beers around.

A good beer tastes good regardless.

With regards price, I think about £4 is the going rate for a pint in most pubs around here. Even my local Brewdog sells their standard lower ABV beers such as Punk and Dead Pony Club at £4 a pint. I don't think that's bad and if I'm having something that's a higher ABV I don't see any issue with paying a little more for it.

The carbonation in cask ale is a natural result of the secondary fermentation process caused by the added hops prior to the cask being sealed, carbon dioxide is a by-product of that fermentation process. however keg beers are still pretty much universally served under pressure so any carbonation is artificially introduced as part of that.

I would have no interest in trying any keg beer as it isn't a product I would choose to support, In the he same way I drink locally produced ciders and perry as opposed to Magners or any of the other "industrial" ciders manufacturers.

I don't know where you live, but where I live, any pub that charged £4 a pint would soon be a very empty pub. My current favourite costs £2.90 a pint, and that's after a considerable price hike from its previous price of £2.65. Congratulations on the level of your disposable income, but most people simply aren't prepared to pay such astronomical prices and don't wish to encourage those who seek to normalise them.

I understand the process but it's still a form of carbonation and still varies from beer to beer.

Your bottom statement is exactly what I meant by narrow minded. The vast majority of brewers producing keg (many also produce cask too) are far from "industrial". Buxton, Beavertown, Siren Craft, Cloudwater, The Kernal etc are far from "industrial" and are amongst the best breweries in the country and many small local breweries produce keg, Lost Industry from Sheffield for example have been making some lovely stuff. I've mostly had their stuff bottled but I've seen a few keg knocking about. They are in no way comparable to Magners!

It isn't being "narrow minded" at all, it is personal preference. Again, why is that such a problem for you? What is wrong with wanting to support the unique, traditional way beer has been brewed in this country for centuries? No other country adds hops to the cask to encourage secondary fermentation to develop the flavour of the beer in the cask as we do in the UK, and keg certainly doesn't do that.

I live in Gloucestershire, so my local breweries are: Gloucestershire Breweries

So that is 25 breweries, all of whom are brewing at pretty much capacity, who all produce very good Real Ale and who are all within @30 miles of where I live, and that is without including all the likes of Butcombe, Bath Ales, Arbour, Bristol Beer Factory, and the other Bristol area breweries.

With such a choice of local Real Ale I have little need, or desire, to try a dead keg beer.

Can people now see why I "have a problem" with Jambo?

He's basically a beer Nazi, and his recent posts do little to defend him from such an accusation.

I'll probably get another ban for this but oh well, never mind I'll just nip down to my local for one of my favourite cask ales. £1.65 a pint too

Is Jambo the one who is rubbishing beers without having tried them? I must be mistaken because I am pretty sure that was someone else.

I find it narrow minded because you won't even entertain it, you rubbish it without even trying it based on some old fashioned views.

Funny you should mention Bristol Beer Factory, they do some nice stuff as do Wiper and True and Moor Beer who are also from Bristol. I've seen all these do keg beer, in fact a quick look on the Bristol Beer Factory website leads you to this quotation.

"KEG BEERS
Kegged beer was saddled with a negative image for many years but it's undergoing something of a renaissance with the introduction of new techniques.
Traditional best bitters and most real ales should remain in cask only but some styles of beers are actually better in keg, for example European wheat beers and US style IPA's, as well as some of our award winning beers."

I guess you'd better stop drinking anything from them then as anything they put in a keg automatically changes into a bad beer.

Another example is The Wild Beer Co, another favourite brewery of mine. Take their Millionaire, a lovely rich stout with salted caramel. I've had the pleasure of drinking that in bottle, cask and keg. All three were quite lovely. This is available in all three forms, so is this a crap beer or is it a good beer? I'm confused.


Hahaha so I'm a beer "Nazi". I enjoy most styles of beer (not keen on red ales and barley wines although I will have a dabble) and am not prejudiced as to whether it is cask, keg, bottle or can. I will only talk about beers that I have actually tried and remain open minded about anything else until I've tried it. My mantra is good beer is good beer, regardless of anything else. I've had approaching 400 different beers this year alone. I've had good beers of all kinds and bad beers of all kinds. I'm about as open minded as they come, I love trying both traditional and new experimental things, if something is quality then that's all that I'm bothered about. All I ever try and do in this thread is post about nice beers that I've had, I'd like to think that if one person read this and went away and tried something new and enjoyed it then I'd be happy. For me it's all about variety, I try as hard as I can to never have the same beer twice (unless I'm forced due to lack of choice, or if it's something incredible), there's so much beer out there and I want to try it all!

You on the other hand slag things off without even trying them, are prejudiced against certain types, prejudiced against things because you have some notion that "hipsters" drink them (what does it matter who else drinks something if the beer is nice) and you've even said you're put off by names of beers.

I know who sounds more like the Nazi. Unless the definition of Nazi has changed and they're now actually known for their open-mindedness and acceptance of different types.

Your £1.65 beer may well be a lovely beer, it could well be something I like but just because you can buy that doesn't mean that every beer should be that much and that more expensive beers are a "rip off".

Why do you have such a problem with the fact I like cask ales and prefer not to drink keg beer?

Keg beer is hardly undergoing a "renaissance" as it was universally despised the fist time around. Keg beer did more to turn people over to lager than anything else.

Breweries have been trying for decades to "re-brand" keg beer, nitrokeg was the last attempt and that failed.

At the moment keg beers are increasing in popularity because they are seen as trendy by "hipsters", but what happens when those hipsters inevitably move on to something else?

If you like over-priced keg beer you carry on drinking it but I would remind you that the title of this thread is Any fans of Real Ale out there? and keg beer, no matter how you try to dress it up is not, and never will be, Real Ale.

I don't have a problem with what anyone likes, I have a problem with people slagging things off that they've never tried and acting all superior because "cask ale is the best". If I walk into a bar I'll look what beers they've got on I base my decision on the brewery and style of beer. Sometimes I'll pick a cask ale, sometimes a keg, sometimes a bottle or can. All that matters to me is that the beer tastes good. A well brewed beer that tastes great in bottles or on cask doesn't suddenly stop being a good beer because they make it in keg too. As I said, Buxton Brewery genuinely are one of the best breweries in the country, I've had loads of their stuff in bottles and it's always damn good, well brewed beer. When in pubs, some of it is available on cask, some keg, it's all good beer though!

I'll say it again, beer is beer.

The vast majority of what I drink is bottled or canned anyway, a lot is bottle conditioned. A lot is labeled as "craft", some "real ale" but to me it's just beer.

I think the problem is that there are now many people who can't remember the depressing times when it was virtually impossible to buy beer that didn't come from a keg. All you could hope for in most pubs was something that was actually drinkable (I remember 'JC' from Courage as being just about tolerable). People would travel miles out of their way to get a pint of Ruddles County (the original one, not the travesty it became). Having won the battle for the resurrection of barrel-fermented cask ales, I certainly have no inclination to contribute in any way to making keg beer seem once more acceptable. Make no mistake about it, brewers produce keg beer for their own convenience, not for that of the general public, and not because it adds to the product in any way whatsoever.

If people want to drink keg beer then fair enough; same with all the gimmick beers with additives like salted caramel (the new alco-pops), but I won't be joining them and I resent the possibility that hipsters are undoing all the good work that too so long to achieve.

Hahahaha, this is genuine comedy genius. You call me a Nazi and then start calling anything different or progressive "gimmicky" and "alco-pops". Oh no, heaven forbid anything develop and change! Nobody is saying get rid of traditional beers, in fact the new "craft" brewers are making more traditional things and bringing more traditional styles back as well as innovating and creating new things. Have Titanic not been making a Plum Porter for years? Have Belgian brewers not used coriander, orange and various other ingredients in their beers for years? How is an IPA conditioned on grapefruit or a stout with coffee beans any different?

Why are you so obsessed with hipsters? I can't say I've really seen many hipsters around, yeah you get the odd one but most of the craft beer bars and bottle shops I frequent are just full of likeminded beer lovers who simply enjoy drinking good beer.

I wonder if deep down you're just a little bit scared? I bet if I gave you a glass of "Bloody 'ell" from Beavertown you might actually like the taste. A lovely drink, a classic IPA but then conditioned on blood oranges, make no mistake, it's an IPA, it tastes like an IPA but it's just got a little something extra from the oranges. Or even a glass of a straight up IPA such as Brewdog "Punk IPA" or Buxton "Axe Edge", or even a nice session pale such as Beavertown "Neck Oil". I bet if you didn't know what it was you might actually enjoy it, then you'd see the label and hate yourself and feel dirty. How sad.

We get it. Keg beer used to be sh*t. However, it isn't any more lots of top breweries are kegging nice beers. It seems stupid to me that if you went into a pub and saw an average beer on cask but then saw, say Absolution which you really enjoy on keg, then you'd buy the average one, just because it was cask.

Please can you supply the quote where I called you a Nazi?

Sorry, I got you mixed up with the other guy who keeps chipping in saying how bad beers are that he's never tried. Easy mistake but apologies. Delete that bit and my point still stands.

To return to the point of the thread (talking about nice beer) I picked up a bottle each of Cloudwater DIPA V4 and V5, very limited supplies. I'm looking forward to trying it hugely. They're both identical apart from one was dry hopped during fermentation and the other dry hopped post fermentation. It'll be interesting to see the difference. V3 was one of my favourite beers of the year so far so hopefully these will be as good. Sadly I'm out this weekend so won't get to try them until next weekend.

Except I haven't done that for a good few pages, so either you're really hung up on that or you're trying to make me bite, which is it?

For what it's worth, your gourmet beers may be the nicest beers in the world, but the advice you gave that guy about golden ales was so far wide of the mark regarding what advice he was actually asking you might as well have been posting from another country.

I get that you've made it your mission to educate us mere mortals about good beer on this thread, but maybe you should just stop for a second and realise that maybe some people don't appreciate being told what they like to drink is crap.

You're obviously passionate about beer and that's great, but you get far too defensive when people disagree with you and it comes across as confrontational.

See I don't agree with that. I don't find Jambo at all confrontational. I just think he gets a bit frustrated when people slag stuff out without basis, which has happened numerous times from numerous people in this thread.

Not sure what a "gourmet beer" is but the advice I gave was absolutely fine. I named a few beers that are available in Tesco that are easy drinking and what's more, they taste good. They're cheap too, the last time I went in they were on offer at 4 for £6 or normal price £1.80. No idea why you'd think they weren't decent suggestions. I then suggested that at some point he might want to try a bottle shop as he'd be able to get advice from a pro who might be able to recommend stuff rather than him just blindly picking things from the supermarket. I've a mate in a similar situation and he went to the bottle shop and loved it as the owner really looked after him.

I'm not confrontational at all. Paul is right though, it is a little frustrating when I'm basically having this argument:

Person: xxxxx is crap.
Me: What didn't you like about it?
Person: Oh, I've not tried it.
Me: Oh right, why don't you try it then?
Person: Because it's crap.
Me: How do you know it's crap then?
Person: Because it just is.

It's basically the same argument I have with my two year old when he won't eat his peas.

As for the keg thing. Imagine this. Your favourite beer in the world is a pint of "Old Stick In The Mud". You always drink this and it's the finest beer you've ever tasted, you're right though, it is a lovely beer. You drink it in pints in your local and in bottles at home and enjoy every drop. One day your friend suggests you go to a different pub. After you've tarred and feathered him for suggesting change you think about it and figure out it might not be too bad as the new pub serves "Old Stick In The Mud" too. You go to the new pub (after your mate's had a shower) and there it is, your favourite beer, the best beer in the world. But it's on keg! You look at the other beers on cask and they're OK, average at best. You sit there drinking an average beer on cask and totally ignore your favourite just because it's suddenly transformed from the best beer in the world into a really bad beer just because it's on keg. Surely anyone can see that this sounds totally insane, yet this is exactly what people are saying and I can quite imagine is exactly what they'd do!

I don't get the keg argument either, probably the one thing I would agree with you on. Most of my favourites are available on keg.

What does annoy me however, is when pubs decide to serve their ales cold. When did that become a thing?